Wikileaks set to reveal huge NSA information, could "lead to deaths"

[PorkChop]

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/ ... d-warnings

In short, the NSA are recording basically all the phonecalls of this one country, which is set to be revealed over the next few days. Could it be the UK? Glen Greenwald, an associate of Snowden, said that naming this country could 'lead to deaths'.

Related, tensions betweens Germany and the US have been building - it was revealed a while back that the NSA had tapped Angela Merkel's phone and denied her access to her NSA file, and since, Germany have said they will ban all technology companies who play ball with the NSA. Germany were also going to bring Snowden in to testify against the NSA's actions.

I genuinely believe that the whole NSA scandal is sowing the seeds for the next big war - I've thought for a long time that the next war would be fought over data and information and the NSA is the biggest collector of it. I'm amazed that a lot of people seem unaware or just don't care about this stuff though.

[Everlong]

I'm amazed that a lot of people seem unaware or just don't care about this stuff though.

My feeling on this is that there are just some things that we're probably better off not knowing. While I understand what Wikileaks has been doing here and why they feel it's important, government secrets are often secrets for good reason and I'm not so sure it's a good idea to compromise that.

[Westcoastvibes]

I'm amazed that a lot of people seem unaware or just don't care about this stuff though.

My feeling on this is that there are just some things that we're probably better off not knowing. While I understand what Wikileaks has been doing here and why they feel it's important, government secrets are often secrets for good reason and I'm not so sure it's a good idea to compromise that.

I agree, the reason most of this stuff is kept secret is that the general public over reacts and they do not know how to handle the information when presented to them

[PorkChop]

I'm amazed that a lot of people seem unaware or just don't care about this stuff though.

My feeling on this is that there are just some things that we're probably better off not knowing. While I understand what Wikileaks has been doing here and why they feel it's important, government secrets are often secrets for good reason and I'm not so sure it's a good idea to compromise that.

I agree, the reason most of this stuff is kept secret is that the general public over reacts and they do not know how to handle the information when presented to them

I disagree, I'd say people have reacted appropriately. What the American government is doing (as well as most other governments, but using America as an example) is completely illegal and unconstitutional. If you're the victim of a crime (in this case, essentially being considered a terrorist until proven otherwise by having your phonecalls tapped and and internet usage monitored) you're going to be a little bit pissed off, especially when it violates the very freedoms your country was allegedly built upon in the first place.

The reason it's kept secret is because the government don't want you to know that it's going on, so they can continue to do it without concern - not because they're worried that the public won't know how to handle the information. It's not as if they know something really cool but haven't told anyone because they think people wouldn't understand it. The general public can certainly cope with a few leaked Powerpoint slides which show that their internet usage and telephone calls are being recorded and stored in bulk, and the NSA knows this, which is why they've gone to such great extents to cover it up.

[Westcoastvibes]

I'm amazed that a lot of people seem unaware or just don't care about this stuff though.

My feeling on this is that there are just some things that we're probably better off not knowing. While I understand what Wikileaks has been doing here and why they feel it's important, government secrets are often secrets for good reason and I'm not so sure it's a good idea to compromise that.

I agree, the reason most of this stuff is kept secret is that the general public over reacts and they do not know how to handle the information when presented to them

I disagree, I'd say people have reacted appropriately. What the American government is doing (as well as most other governments, but using America as an example) is completely illegal and unconstitutional. If you're the victim of a crime (in this case, essentially being considered a terrorist until proven otherwise by having your phonecalls tapped and and internet usage monitored) you're going to be a little bit pissed off, especially when it violates the very freedoms your country was allegedly built upon in the first place.

The reason it's kept secret is because the government don't want you to know that it's going on, so they can continue to do it without concern - not because they're worried that the public won't know how to handle the information. It's not as if they know something really cool but haven't told anyone because they think people wouldn't understand it. The general public can certainly cope with a few leaked Powerpoint slides which show that their internet usage and telephone calls are being recorded and stored in bulk, and the NSA knows this, which is why they've gone to such great extents to cover it up.

I firmly feel that the NSA did not cover up phone/internet monitoring because it was illegal or because people disagree with it. The cover up is because some things are best unknown, if every Joe blow knew the NSA was monitoring this stuff then there would be no reason to monitor it. I know that is back added in logic but the purpose is intended to gather information on national security threats. Now, I am not saying the practice is unflawed or that its uncorrupted, just that in order to gather secure information you need a certain amount of secrecy or anonymity that can not be obtained if its general knowledge.
Now, I agree that people would not have flipped out if the NSA thing was a bill being proposed, it would just be voted down. But the fact that people are unable to see the good within the bad shows that the public will cry wolf at anything unknown or uncommon

[PorkChop]

I firmly feel that the NSA did not cover up phone/internet monitoring because it was illegal or because people disagree with it.

Disagree, this was absolutely their reasoning. This is pretty evident in how they shat themselves when their documents were leaked and launched what was basically a smear campaign against Snowden. You're right in that the government thought that their surveillance operations were best left unknown, but they thought that because they know what they're doing is illegal and violates the constitutional rights of Americans, and so the they wanted to hide it from people. The government thought it was best left unknown BECAUSE it was illegal and unconstitutional, not just because they like the general idea of keeping secrets.

Also, they definitely covered it up because they knew people would disagree with it. If it became public people would begin to take measures against the NSA, and they have done. There's a huge rise in privacy concerns, more people are using encrypton and people have began to abandon tech companies which work with the NSA, such as Google - instead choosing to use services which protect their privacy. This is exactly what the NSA didn't want, which is why they kept their operations quiet as they knew people would disagree with them and take action against them.

the purpose is intended to gather information on national security threats.

Yet Obama can't point to a single occasion when NSA records managed to prevent a terrorist attack. This also weakens your claim that there's "good within the bad" as, well, the NSA can't conclusively say their surveillance has done any good.

[Chewy]

I firmly feel that the NSA did not cover up phone/internet monitoring because it was illegal or because people disagree with it.

Disagree, this was absolutely their reasoning. This is pretty evident in how they shat themselves when their documents were leaked and launched what was basically a smear campaign against Snowden. You're right in that the government thought that their surveillance operations were best left unknown, but they thought that because they know what they're doing is illegal and violates the constitutional rights of Americans, and so the they wanted to hide it from people. The government thought it was best left unknown BECAUSE it was illegal and unconstitutional, not just because they like the general idea of keeping secrets.

Also, they definitely covered it up because they knew people would disagree with it. If it became public people would begin to take measures against the NSA, and they have done. There's a huge rise in privacy concerns, more people are using encrypton and people have began to abandon tech companies which work with the NSA, such as Google - instead choosing to use services which protect their privacy. This is exactly what the NSA didn't want, which is why they kept their operations quiet as they knew people would disagree with them and take action against them.

the purpose is intended to gather information on national security threats.

Yet Obama can't point to a single occasion when NSA records managed to prevent a terrorist attack. This also weakens your claim that there's "good within the bad" as, well, the NSA can't conclusively say their surveillance has done any good.

It's not illegal for the NSA to gather data.

As for your last part, just because they haven't announced publicly that their data collection has stopped terrorism, doesn't mean it hasn't.

[Westcoastvibes]

I firmly feel that the NSA did not cover up phone/internet monitoring because it was illegal or because people disagree with it.

Disagree, this was absolutely their reasoning. This is pretty evident in how they shat themselves when their documents were leaked and launched what was basically a smear campaign against Snowden. You're right in that the government thought that their surveillance operations were best left unknown, but they thought that because they know what they're doing is illegal and violates the constitutional rights of Americans, and so the they wanted to hide it from people. The government thought it was best left unknown BECAUSE it was illegal and unconstitutional, not just because they like the general idea of keeping secrets.

Also, they definitely covered it up because they knew people would disagree with it. If it became public people would begin to take measures against the NSA, and they have done. There's a huge rise in privacy concerns, more people are using encrypton and people have began to abandon tech companies which work with the NSA, such as Google - instead choosing to use services which protect their privacy. This is exactly what the NSA didn't want, which is why they kept their operations quiet as they knew people would disagree with them and take action against them.

the purpose is intended to gather information on national security threats.

Yet Obama can't point to a single occasion when NSA records managed to prevent a terrorist attack. This also weakens your claim that there's "good within the bad" as, well, the NSA can't conclusively say their surveillance has done any good.

It's not illegal for the NSA to gather data.

As for your last part, just because they haven't announced publicly that their data collection has stopped terrorism, doesn't mean it hasn't.

I was gonna say the same thing.
We may find out 30 years from now when things are declassified that it did indeed stop a major terrorism plot, or we can find out it did nothing.point is, just because Obama can't provide proof at this point does not mean the proof is not there.

[The Legend]

If people knew the vast number of threats received by our country on a daily basis and therefore prevented through our intelligence services knowing about it, we would all walk around in a paranoid panic for the rest of our lives. Sorry PorkChop, but you are wrong on this one, governments have to have secrets when it comes to National Security. It helps security and strategy to not let your enemies know what you know.

[PorkChop]

Well, that's me done in this thread.