Messiah - What's a top QB?

[Messiah]

https://twitter.com/Gil_Brandt/status/5 ... 1058128897

Pickable passes (ball thrown that should have been INT):

Best: Cam Newton (0 in 179 att), Matt Ryan (1-234)

Worst: Jay Cutler (9-229)

[Messiah]

It looks like Kelvin Benjamin will not play against the Green Bay Packers this week due to a concussion.

This leaves Cam Newton with the 30th ranked rush defense, 28th ranked pass defense, 27th ranked run offense (by the way, Sir Newton happens to lead his team in rushing on the season... AGAIN), and a supporting cast of Jerricho Cotchery, Jason Avant, Brentson Bersin, Philly Brown, Fozzy Whittaker, Nate Chandler (defensive tackle turned offensive tackle; bottom 5 OT in the NFL), and Byron Bell (bottom 5 OT in the NFL. For any other player in the NFL (except Luck, because apparently his supporting cast is way worse than this LOLOLOL), this would be a problem.

Too bad Green Bay is playing the One Man Army, Cameron Jerrell Newton this week.

[Messiah]

WELL WHY DOESN'T THE REST OF THE WORLD LIKE CAM AND CLAIM HIM TO BE A TOP QB, MESSIAH?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... e-top-five

Top Shelf

1. Philip Rivers
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Peyton Manning
4. Andrew Luck
5. Cam Newton

Cam Newton is playing like a top five quarterback. He has thrown the ball better over the last month than any point in his career. It just so happens that he wasn't able to run for most of that time.

Did staying in the pocket make Newton a better passer? That seems like too convenient a narrative. It's more likely that Newton is developing like we all hoped he would. Newton -- and Andrew Luck -- should no longer be talked about as future great players. They might be young, but they've arrived.

Everyone expected the Panthers passing attack to collapse after the team jettisoned their top three receivers and watched half their offensive linemen retire in the offseason. Instead, Newton has led a dramatic improvement. FootballOutsiders ranks the Panthers passing attack seventh in the league. Newton's accuracy has been far more consistent, and Carolina is pushing the ball down the field. Cam is carrying a shaky offensive line that can't pass protect and a running game that featured Darrin Reaves and Fozzy Whittaker last week. He's making better decisions and taking fewer sacks. He's making the team around him better.

Fantasy owners were excited to see Newton run with abandon again in Cincinnati. The Bengals dared him to keep the ball on the read option and he responded with six first downs, a touchdown, and 107 yards. His running backs combined for 40 yards. Newton only ran twice in the first half, but he took what the Bengals gave him after that.

Newton's running ability adds enormous value, but it's his consistent throws that have impressed more this year. He no longer gets into funks for an entire half, and still brings the best fastball around. (Newton leads the league in throws that go too fast for the end zone angle camera operators.) Newton looks like the same quarterback every week, and that's the final step toward joining the best.

ProFootballFocus, Football Outsiders and NFL.com are just three of the many who have come out and considered Cam Newton as one of the top QBs in the NFL, not just myself.

[Everlong]

I love me some Cam, but I think it's a bit early to consider him a top five player in this league at his position.

[Messiah]

I agree. I don't think he has a single argument for being a top five QB either and I don't consider him a top 10 QB overall (as of now, yet; I think, by 2015, he will be fully entrenched in there with Brady and Brees declining and the likely retirement of P. Manning; I also expect Romo and Roethlisberger to face steep decline as well), but I do think there is a legitimate argument for him being top 5 so far this year, which is what that list is judging on. Newton is in a worse situation than any other quarterback in the NFL currently; what he has been able to accomplish this year, from becoming a much improved pocket passer while coming off cracked ribs and a surgically repaired ankle along with a thumb injury that is bothering him on his throwing shoulder if I recall, is quite frankly remarkable. With his top 3 RBs out and an entirely new receiving group sans Greg Olsen, Newton has still improved as a quarterback and as a leader. He has twice in 5 games this year led game winning/tying drives (vs. Chicago, vs. Cincinnati).

Pro Football Focus has its flaws undoubtedly but there is a reason Newton has graded out as the #1 QB and Gregg Rosenthal isn't the first analyst to consider Newton one of the top QBs in the game currently (Mike Mayock, Gil Brandt). My point was to show PR that it isn't me just hyping up Cam just to hype him. He has looked in 2014 so far as one of the best QBs in the game and is doing so with movable, replaceable pieces around him. Even Kelvin Benjamin, for as good as he looks at times, is very hot and cold - he is currently 4th in the league in dropped passes and I think that is a bit generous because I've seen more than 4. Not to mention him mistiming the ball on a well placed would-be touchdown pass from Newton in the Chicago game.

[Philip Rivers]

although much better at it this year, has in the past had difficulty making quick decisions with the ball (then again, Flacco sucks at this too).

Prove this. I bet Flacco is getting the ball out of his hands quicker, completing a higher percentage of his passes, is more clutch on 3rd down and is delivering in that stat just as well as anyone else this year.

Whenever Carolina is winning, CAM PUTS THE TEAM ON HIS BACK, his team is shitting the bed and he's not responsible!!! All I hear is excuses.



But but but, you're not presenting a legitimate argument for Flacco, because I only take into accordance by year and not previous distinct accomplishments! As well, I say I'm right about opinionated subjects!




CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM.

[Messiah]

But I already said Cam Newton isn't playing well today and I already said he isn't a top 10 QB.

But yeah, I don't place any responsibility at all on him. Please. It is not my fault you are completely ignorant to the quarterback position.

And I couldn't care less if Flacco gets the ball out faster than Newton. I already said Newton sucks at that.

[Philip Rivers]

But I already said Cam Newton isn't playing well today and I already said he isn't a top 10 QB.

But yeah, I don't place any responsibility at all on him. Please. It is not my fault you are completely ignorant to the quarterback position.

And I couldn't care less if Flacco gets the ball out faster than Newton. I already said Newton sucks at that.

You also said Flacco sucks at it. I asked you to prove it, basically to show people you're blowing steam out of your ass and don't know what you're talking about.

Apparently I'm ignorant because your QB can't even comprehend simple quick reads and is ass in the accuracy department.

Apparently I'm ignorant because I can't establish a 'reasonable' reason to why Flacco is better, apparently...Cam Newton isn't getting the RESPECT HE DESERVES FOR BEING SO GREAT.


Apparently.

[Messiah]

You also said Flacco sucks at it. I asked you to prove it, basically to show people you're blowing steam out of your ass and don't know what you're talking about.

Is this a serious question?

Everyone knows Joe Flacco tends to hold onto the ball too long.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -the-ball/

Flacco led the league with 25 sacks in which he held the ball over three seconds. Flacco needs to get rid of the ball quicker, although we’d argue Baltimore’s slow receivers are a major cause of the problem. The rest of the top five doesn’t contain many surprises: Roethlisberger, Jay Cutler, Michael Vick, and Jason Campbell.

While Flacco and Roethlisberger took 45 combined sacks where they held the ball for more than three seconds, the Manning brothers only had one apiece.

That’s on the quarterback.

This was from the 2010 season, but not much has changed since. Just go back and look at the final 2 sacks of the game he took against Cincinnati in Week 1 (VISUAL proof for you). Has he gotten better at it? Sure, he utilizes his checkdown option a lot, this mostly because the scheme asks him too. But everybody who has watched Flacco has mentioned how he will hold onto the ball too long and take unnecessary sacks. I thought this was common knowledge.

Except, I guess, for you. But yeah, I'm blowing steam out my ass.

Unlike you, I don't consider everything I say to be gospel. I have my fair share of wrong predictions and whatnot.

[Messiah]

Apparently I'm ignorant because I can't establish a 'reasonable' reason to why Flacco is better, apparently...Cam Newton isn't getting the RESPECT HE DESERVES FOR BEING SO GREAT.

You haven't. Your only reasoning has been how Flacco looked in 4 games in the postseason.

You could make an argument. I don't think Flacco is a bad QB at all and there is an argument to be made that Flacco is better than Newton. You just haven't made it because you are ignorant to the QB position. It is OK, it isn't a bad thing. I'm ignorant to a lot of things too.

[Philip Rivers]

This was from the 2010 season, but not much has changed since. Just go back and look at the final 2 sacks of the game he took against Cincinnati in Week 1 (VISUAL proof for you). Has he gotten better at it? Sure, he utilizes his checkdown option a lot, this mostly because the scheme asks him too. But everybody who has watched Flacco has mentioned how he will hold onto the ball too long and take unnecessary sacks. I thought this was common knowledge.

Except, I guess, for you. But yeah, I'm blowing steam out my ass.

Unlike you, I don't consider everything I say to be gospel. I have my fair share of wrong predictions and whatnot.

2010?! SOMETHING FROM 4 YEARS AGO?!?!!!! WHATTTT OUTRAGEOUS!!




Guess what? Joe Flacco's attempts on anything coming after 2.5-3 seconds is cut in half. Obviously meaning, he's getting rid of the ball a lot quicker and consistently than he's holding onto it.

Cam Newton, not so much.

BUT APPARENTLY an article with words from 2010 is GREAT PROOF.


Class is in session boy.

If they're basically identical passing quarterbacks, one consistently wins more historically and has proven that he can elevate his game during post-season play, why the hell wouldn't I take him 10-10 times? Cam Newton does nothing amazingly great or better than Flacco slinging the pig-skin, outside of his legs....it's nothing.

Therefore how could Cam ever be DEFINTELY better than Joe?

[Messiah]

Scheme has a LOT to do with that. I know someone like you can't comprehend that.

Ben Roethlisberger has a lot of his attempts in the 2.5 second range but would you claim that Roethlisberger is a QB who doesn't hold onto the ball too long (because that would be a damn lie)? A big part of that is because Roethlisberger's offense calls for a shit load of screen plays, primarily to Antonio Brown. Baltimore calls for a lot of screens and quick passes too, not as much as Haley's offense in Pittsburgh but still a good amount. Pitta and Daniels had 21 and 16 receptions entering the game today (more than Torrey Smith) and Justin Forsett, the halfback, had 23 receptions for 118 yards. Scheme dictates how fast the ball gets out of your hands, unless your QB is mobile and then it is very unpredictable (see, Russell Wilson).

When Joe Flacco is running a basic play, he holds onto the ball a long time. Again, look at Week 1 and the last 2 sacks he took. Hell, if I remember correctly, he took another sack at the end of the first half that either took them out of field goal range or when they had no timeouts, forgot which. Any knowledgeable football fan who watches Flacco play knows he has a problem with holding the ball unnecessarily long.

[Messiah]

If they're basically identical passing quarterbacks, one consistently wins more historically and has proven that he can elevate his game during post-season play, why the hell wouldn't I take him 10-10 times? Cam Newton does nothing amazingly great or better than Flacco slinging the pig-skin, outside of his legs....it's nothing.

Therefore how could Cam ever be DEFINTELY better than Joe?

See, you actually presented somewhat of an argument in Flacco's case that goes beyond just 4 postseason games.

Flacco is balling out this year. Playing as good as I have ever seen him, from his pocket presence to his downfield throwing (always been good at this) and not making as many boneheaded mistakes, especially compared to last year. I said on the last page I believe that there is a legitimate argument for Flacco over Cam, so I'm not attempting to rule out the idea Joe is superior than Cam (and I shouldn't have said "definitely" on the first page). I just think Joe is more scheme, player dependent than Newton. Newton never had a season as poor as Flacco's was last season and it was mainly because Flacco had no running game at all and an extremely week offensive line. However, with that said, Flacco at his best has outperformed Newton at his best. So you could go either way.

Right now, I would say Flacco is playing better than Newton, yes.

[Philip Rivers]

You're sitting here explaining to me about scheme whenever I completely understand why it's pivotal to use quick passes to naturalize certain defenses and individual defenders in general, as well as it serving numerous other purposes. Stop pretending to know stuff.

What's the difference in the passing yards per attempt between Flacco and Newton? I bet they're similarly close to one another.

But but but but THIS YEAR, THIS YEAR.

[Philip Rivers]

See, you actually presented somewhat of an argument in Flacco's case that goes beyond just 4 postseason games.

Or you just actually made the Hamster run on the wheel in your head and used reading comprehension skills. I've said nothing different in my stance the entire time.

Cam can have his day one of these years, he's still young. Now is not the day, this year is not the year...none of it.

[Messiah]

You're sitting here explaining to me about scheme whenever I completely understand why it's pivotal to use quick passes to naturalize certain defenses and individual defenders in general, as well as it serving numerous other purposes. Stop pretending to know stuff.

It affects things such as that chart.

Again, going by that chart Roethlisberger doesn't have an issue with holding the ball too long. Do you think that?

The chart means nothing. It is affected by their offensive scheme. Roethlisberger holds onto the ball too long just like Flacco tends to do. He has gotten better at it but it is still an issue. Anyone who has seen him play knows this. It is a flaw in his game.

But I guess I'm just retarded. Sorry, I'll leave my NFL opinions out.

[Philip Rivers]

The chart is a PROVEN statistic from each INDIVIDUAL on a per snap basis my dude. Basically Messiah, what it's saying is Joe Flacco is getting rid of a the ball QUICKER, EFFICENTLY and consistently than most QBs in the league.

Therefore, he's not being 'notorious' for what he's apparently KNOWN for among the people around the NFL with all of this GENERAL KNOWLEDGE.

You're saying it's heavily SCHEME based. For one, if that were true, how do you hold a QB against doing his job well/properly? Secondly, I want to see proof that Joe Flacco in 2014 is throwing more check-down passes/screens/bubbles SIGNIFIGANTLY more than intermediate and long routes.

But he's holding onto the ball too long!
Well, he's only getting rid of it quicker because of his scheme!

[Philip Rivers]

The chart is a PROVEN statistic from each INDIVIDUAL on a per snap basis my dude. Basically Messiah, what it's saying is Joe Flacco is getting rid of a the ball QUICKER, EFFICENTLY and consistently than most QBs in the league.

Therefore, he's not being 'notorious' for what he's apparently KNOWN for among the people around the NFL with all of this GENERAL KNOWLEDGE.

You're saying it's heavily SCHEME based. For one, if that were true, how do you hold a QB against doing his job well/properly? Secondly, I want to see proof that Joe Flacco in 2014 is throwing more check-down passes/screens/bubbles SIGNIFIGANTLY more than intermediate and long routes.

But he's holding onto the ball too long!
Well, he's only getting rid of it quicker because of his scheme!

Joe Flacco is just a product of his system, he's a robot with a unibrow strictly forbidden to be able to get the ball quickly out of his hands, even if he's reading coverages and understanding NFL defenses better than Newton. He can only due so, based off of his scheme/offensive system!!!!!!!

[Messiah]

I never said that at all, but alright. You are clearly missing the point.

I guess Roethlisberger doesn't hold onto the ball too long.

My point is that stat is heavily dictated by scheme. Never criticized Flacco for it. I already said Flacco is a good QB and out-performing Cam this year. But that chart doesn't disprove anything I have said. Everyone knows Roethlisberger holds onto the ball too long (it is why you choose to ignore the question) and yet look where he ranks on the chart - it is because Haley's offense calls for a load of screens, particularly to Antonio Brown which throws off his ranking. Flacco's offense does too - that doesn't change the fact that he, along with Big Ben, hold onto the ball a long time. 3 examples of it in Week 1 alone. It isn't even a big deal that Flacco does - every QB has flaws, including Cam, Flacco, Eli, Luck, etc. Everyone who knows football knows he tends to. The fact that you act like he doesn't have that tendency is laughable.

But keep being you, man.

[Messiah]

I don't even know what the point of this is anymore. I have already said Cam Newton is not a top 10 QB.

As a matter of fact, I don't even know where in the other thread (which is how this topic started) that I called Cam a "top" QB. He is one of the best QBs in the NFL I have said, yeah, but everyone all agrees he is at least top 15. Which I would think constitutes being one of the best/better QBs in the NFL.