Messiah - What's a top QB?

[Messiah]

LUCK has done way more, with way less around him as well.

Get the fuck out.

Please don't try to act like the Indy team that beat Kansas City in the playoffs last year was stacked. People really consider a 35 year old Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton on par with prime Wayne and Marvin Harrison

Where did I say it was stacked or even give that impression?

The idea that Luck has "way less around him" is just a ridiculous statement and you know that.

[Messiah]

LUCK has done way more, with way less around him as well.

Get the fuck out.

Luck with that Carolina D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luck with a playoff win >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Panthers D in PPG:
2011 - 27th
2012 - 18th
2013 - 2nd
2014 - 18th (not including giving up 37 today)

Colts D in PPG since Luck has been there:
2012 - 21st
2013 - 9th
2014 - 17th

Carolina's D has been awful outside of 1 season.

[DanielsonTHAGOAT]

LUCK has done way more, with way less around him as well.

Get the fuck out.

Please don't try to act like the Indy team that beat Kansas City in the playoffs last year was stacked. People really consider a 35 year old Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton on par with prime Wayne and Marvin Harrison

Where did I say it was stacked or even give that impression?

The idea that Luck has "way less around him" is just a ridiculous statement and you know that.

He doesn't have "way less around him" but he sure as hell isn't throwing it to top 5 wide outs. I don't know why people look our offensive personnel and come up with the impression that it's "stacked".

[Messiah]

LUCK has done way more, with way less around him as well.

Get the fuck out.

Please don't try to act like the Indy team that beat Kansas City in the playoffs last year was stacked. People really consider a 35 year old Reggie Wayne and TY Hilton on par with prime Wayne and Marvin Harrison

Where did I say it was stacked or even give that impression?

The idea that Luck has "way less around him" is just a ridiculous statement and you know that.

He doesn't have "way less around him" but he sure as hell isn't throwing it to top 5 wide outs. I don't know why people look our offensive personnel and come up with the impression that it's "stacked".

Why are you getting so defensive? I never once said he was throwing to top 5 wide outs.

All I said was the comment that Luck has way less around him is ridiculous, WHICH YOU JUST AGREED WITH. I haven't said anything about the quality of Luck's surrounding cast actually. Just that it isn't "way less" than Cam's.

[Philip Rivers]

I don't care what he agreed with because I don't agree with him. I think Luck has had far less around him, if Luck played with Carolina's defense in 2013 behind him, it'd be ridiculous.

Luck has never had top offensive weapons in the league with the exception of Wayne, he surely hasn't had a defense.

Cam's best supporting cast in his career, kills Luck's best squad.



Again, you're not a top 10 QB with 0 playoff wins, winning does matter. No matter how you twist it in favoritism.

[The Legend]

Winning is a team statistic in football. It's not like baseball where win is a stat attached to the pitcher. Wins aren't accumulated to the quarterback for a reason.

[Messiah]

Winning is a team statistic in football. It's not like baseball where win is a stat attached to the pitcher. Wins aren't accumulated to the quarterback for a reason.

Don't even bother.

[Philip Rivers]

Winning is a team statistic in football. It's not like baseball where win is a stat attached to the pitcher. Wins aren't accumulated to the quarterback for a reason.

Okay so the play of your most important position on the field, doesn't shoulder a heavy load for the performance of your football team?

Browns without the play of Hoyer are the same shitty team they've been the past decade, typically showing promise on the defensive side, nobody to lead them on the offensive side.

Wins aren't accumulated to a quarterback by a technicality, everyone knows QB is the most position in football.

So, if you make it to the playoffs and your QB is turning the ball over, under preforming, you're most likely not winning.


Lets visit my point, the Panthers one playoff appearance speaks perfectly to your team gesture, Carolina's defense was a major reason they were in the game. Cam couldn't make top 10 QB plays and turned the ball over, it resulted in his team losing.

[Messiah]

Yeah. Andrew Luck has been excellent at protecting the ball in the postseason. He surely wouldn't have made mistakes vs. the San Francisco 49ers.

[Messiah]

I don't even think Newton is better than Luck. Your argument is just laughable.

Luck is better because of his exceptional pocket presence and consistent accuracy up and down the field, attributes you fail to mention because you won't acknowledge anything other than W/L. Not because his supporting cast is "way less" and certainly nothing to do with postseason play.

Andrew Luck is the best young QB in the game, no doubt. But to say he has had a "way less" (emphasis on WAY - even if you want to argue his hasn't been as good as Newton's, it certainly isn't by the magical gap you are attempting to create) supporting cast is dumb and to say he has no defense when they were ranked 9th in PPG last year and have ranked higher than Carolina this year is silly. Not to mention Luck plays in the AFC South.

[Philip Rivers]

But but but it's a team sport, Cam isn't responsible for his losses.


Whenever he's winning it's "Oh, he's putting the team on his back!"


Players, especially top tier, top 10 players should be held to accountability as well, especially if they're trying to claim being one of the 'best'.

There ARE individual awards in football, there are no team awards, other than a Superbowl. Lets not hold stock in post-season success by QBs or their pedigrees though, because apparently that holds no weight. Especially if it happened years ago.

Yall are joking me.

[DanielsonTHAGOAT]

Winning is a team statistic in football. It's not like baseball where win is a stat attached to the pitcher. Wins aren't accumulated to the quarterback for a reason.

I agree with this to an extent but how many times has Luck had to bail his team out to secure the W? He has 8 fourth quarter comebacks and 11 game winning drives. He had to fill in the shoes of Peyton fucking Manning in his first year as a starter.

The truth is, if you put Luck behind a offensive line like the Panthers in 2012 and their defense in 2013 (if I remember correctly, the Panthers had the best front 7 this year) he'd prolly lead the Panthers to the NFCCG.

Obviously Luck's main flaw is his turnovers but very rarely do his turnovers come from important drives in the fourth quarter. He is extremely persistent and a fucking MAN when the game's on the line and the ball's in his hands.

[Philip Rivers]

If Cam Newton won MVP, it'd be about how he's the best player in the league. Not about his team being the best.


Go get a playoff victory this year if you're a top 10 QB.

I don't care how good some 'TEAMS' are right now.

Denver is ass without Manning
Chargers are going to the dark days without Rivers.
New England, long term without Brady, come on....
Colts without Luck...

The impact of that one player sure is important...

[Messiah]

There ARE individual awards in football, there are no team awards, other than a Superbowl. Lets not hold stock in post-season success by QBs or their pedigrees though, because apparently that holds no weight. Especially if it happened years ago.

Yeah, Roethlisberger winning the Super Bowl in 2008 is important when it comes to 2014.

[Philip Rivers]

There ARE individual awards in football, there are no team awards, other than a Superbowl. Lets not hold stock in post-season success by QBs or their pedigrees though, because apparently that holds no weight. Especially if it happened years ago.

Yeah, Roethlisberger winning the Super Bowl in 2008 is important when it comes to 2014.

Okay, so Cam's team is the reason they're better than Big Ben's team. He's not better, his team is, right? Yalls logic.

[Everlong]

There is so much trolling going on in this thread. There just has to be. No sane, serious person can realistically use four games that happened two years ago for Flacco and justify him being better than Newton based on that.

[Messiah]

There ARE individual awards in football, there are no team awards, other than a Superbowl. Lets not hold stock in post-season success by QBs or their pedigrees though, because apparently that holds no weight. Especially if it happened years ago.

Yeah, Roethlisberger winning the Super Bowl in 2008 is important when it comes to 2014.

Okay, so Cam's team is the reason they're better than Big Ben's team. He's not better, his team is, right? Yalls logic.

What the fuck are you talking about?

And that is besides the point. I never said Cam was better than Ben nor do I think he is.

I judge QBs based off their on-field performance, not how good their team is.

[Philip Rivers]

There is so much trolling going on in this thread. There just has to be. No sane, serious person can realistically use four games that happened two years ago for Flacco and justify him being better than Newton based on that.

Joe Flacco and his Ravens are better than Cam Newton and the Panthers THIS YEAR, RIGHT NOW. In 2014.

[Everlong]

There is so much trolling going on in this thread. There just has to be. No sane, serious person can realistically use four games that happened two years ago for Flacco and justify him being better than Newton based on that.

Joe Flacco and his Ravens are better than Cam Newton and the Panthers THIS YEAR, RIGHT NOW. In 2014.

The Ravens are definitely better than the Panthers, but I really don't know that I could take Flacco over Newton right now. Though he definitely has a better argument than he did last year, he was complete ass last year. Don't read too much into what happened with the Bucs today, they're absolutely terrible and even the woeful Falcons put up a shit ton on them.

QBs that I'd rank over Newton in no particular order:

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Peyton Manning
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees (both Brady and Brees are slipping but I'd still have them ahead of Newton, giving them benefit of the doubt)
5. Philip Rivers
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Andrew Luck
8. Tony Romo


That might be all. Based on what's been happening this year, I'd move Newton past Matt Ryan in my rankings and I still have him over guys like Russell Wilson, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning, Colin Kaepernick and Joe Flacco.

Rodgers, Manning and Rivers are on levels of their own this year with Andrew Luck hot on their tails. I'd say those four guys are the clear top four performers this season.

[Messiah]

There is so much trolling going on in this thread. There just has to be. No sane, serious person can realistically use four games that happened two years ago for Flacco and justify him being better than Newton based on that.

Joe Flacco and his Ravens are better than Cam Newton and the Panthers THIS YEAR, RIGHT NOW. In 2014.

And Cam Newton has been better than Tom Brady THIS YEAR, RIGHT NOW.