It's been a while since we've had an interesting debate.. PEYTON MANNING HATERS PLEASE ENTER

[DanielsonTHAGOAT]

I found a collection of stats, articles, and stuff I personally wrote when I had a debate about why Manning is the greatest of all time aka THA GOAT. I thought I'd share it with ya'll and see what kind of havoc I can stir..

EDIT: I realize I made a grammar error. I didn't personally write all of this, there are a lot of stats and articles I found from other discussion boards, articles, and and Pro-football reference.

At age 37, after recovering from four neck surgeries (and a risky surgical procedure he doesn't talk about), and after coming to a new team and a new town, he has won 28 of 35 games ... and set every season passing record in the league's annals.He earned an unparalleled fifth NFL MVP award He has been selected to more Pro Bowls (13) than any other quarterback. He has won the second-most games of any quarterback in league history. In 13 of 15 seasons he has been to the postseason, won division titles and finished with double-digit victories. He has the highest number of game-winning drives. He holds or shares 55 regular-season and postseason records. Watching Manning play quarterback is a joy and a privilege. At a time when passing-game concepts are soaring to complex new levels, Manning maintains an unprecedented, unparalleled mastery of his offense. There's no other quarterback who carries the same level of pre-snap responsibility and handles it so deftly. Peyton's remarkable 55-touchdown season at age 37 after concern his neck problems could end his career means he has been better in the twilight with his second team than Montana was with his (Chiefs).Manning has always been a passer first. As a rookie, he threw for 3,739 yards and set a rookie record (since tied by Russell Wilson) with 26 touchdowns no QB has been this good for as long as he has.
In all 15 seasons he's played, In all 15 seasons he's played, Manning has had 3700+ yards, 26+ TD passes, and 300+ completions. All other QBs: 61 such seasons

Lets compare Peyton Manning 2013 season to) Dan Marino (1984), Tom Brady (2007), Aaron Rodgers (2011), and Drew Brees (2011).

Year- 1984
QB- Dan Marino
TD- 48
Passing Yards/Game- 317.8
Passer Rating- 108.9
Comp %-64.2



As you can see by the pic Dan Marino was number 1 in
Passer Rating
TD
YPG
What becomes visually evident right away is that Marino was indisputably the best quarterback that season, putting up numbers unheard of for that time. A 5000+ yard season, along with 48 touchdowns, merits praise even in today's pass-heavy league, but stood as a statistical anomaly in '84. While many would describe Brees' 2011 season as a shattering of Marino's old passing yardage record, Marino still had a higher standard deviation score in this category. Oddly enough, his performance in regard to touchdowns and yards/game was still not as dominant compared to Manning in 2013, even in terms of standard deviations. Manning 2013 season > Marinos 1984

Year- 2011
QB, Drew Brees and Arron Rogers
TDs 45 for AR / 46 for DB
Passing Yards/Game- 309.5 for AR and 342.3 for DB
Passer Rating- AR 122.5 NFL record/ for DB 110.5
Comp % 71.2 for DB/ 68.3 for AR



The performances by Manning (2013) and Brees (2011) resemble one another, in that both QB's led the league in touchdowns and yards. Neither one was the most efficient when it came Passer Rating, falling short to Nick Foles's 2013 stretch of play and Aaron Rodgers' MVP season in 2011
It is evident, however, that Manning transcended eras with his record-breaking 55 touchdowns and league-leading 342.3 yards/game. The next highest number of touchdowns that year was 39 from Brees. Manning 2013 season > Brees 2011 season.

Brees did break the all-time record for total passing yards in 2011, but not with the authority of Manning's dominance in 2013, as Tom Brady and Matthew Stafford were also approaching that record the same year.

Year- 2007
Name- Tom Brady
TD- 50
Passing Yards/Game-300.4
Passer Rating- 117.2
Comp %- 68.9



Tom Brady's first MVP season in 2007 marks one of two seasons we'll look at in which the top QB led the league in all four stats examined here. No one else was above 2 standard deviations in any category. Brady was challenged by no one that year for any passing metric.

Year- 2013
Name- Peyton Manning
TD- 55
Passing Yards/game-342.3
Passer Rating-115.1
Comp %- 68.3



It was a record broken year for Peyton Manning and the Broncos
NFL Records are the following below

TeamPoints
The Broncos scored 606 points in 2013, breaking the record of 589 set by the New England Patriots in 2007.

Touchdowns
Denver's 76 touchdowns beat the previous record of 75, also held by the 2007 Patriots.

Players with 10 or more touchdowns
The Broncos' Four Horsemen - WRs Demaryius Thomas (14), Eric Decker (11), Wes Welker (10), and TE Julius Thomas (12) - all finished with at least 10 touchdowns in 2013, while RB Knowshon Moreno added 13 of his own to break this NFL record - by two players (previous record was three).

Passing First Downs
The Broncos converted 293 first downs through the air in 2013, with a small handful coming from QB Brock Osweiler in backup work. The previous record was 280 set by the Saints in 2011


Super Bowl Loss-
The super bowl loss for Peyton Manning was a huge blow to his legacy Manning has lowest QB rating of super bowl since Rex Grossman loses 40 to 8...... OUCH......The Seahawks took on an offense that scored an NFL-record 606 points and held them without a first down in the first quarter. Denver didn't score until the final play of the third quarter. At one point the Broncos had 11 yards and the Seahawks had 15 point.. The Seahawks took on an offense that scored an NFL-record 606 points and held them without a first down in the first quarter. Denver didn't score until the final play of the third quarter. Denver had 306 yards (just a measly 4.8 per play), and a lot of that came after the game was well out of reach Peyton Manning's 73.5 passer rating in Super Bowl XLVIII is the lowest since Rex Grossman in Super Bowl XLI (68.3). In his defense He isnt the only one who has had playoff woes ,I wonder why no one has mentioned Joe Montana's playoff losses.


1983 vs. Redskins - Loss 21-24, 27-48 passing for 347, 3 TDs 1 INT
1985--one and done - v. Giants - Loss 3-17, 26-47 passing, 296, obviously no TD's, 1 INT
1986--another one and done - vs. Giants - Loss 3-49 8-15, 98 yrds, 2 INTs -- did he finish this game?
1987--another one and done - vs. Vikings - Loss 24-36, 12-26 passing, 109 yrds, 1 INT - finish this game?
1990--vs. Giants - loss 13-15, 18-26, 190 yrds, 1 TD, 0 INTs
1993 with Chiefs - vs. Bills - loss 13-30--9-23 for 125 yrds, 0tds 1 INT
1994--one and done with Chiefs - vs. Dolphins-- loss 17-27, 26-37, 314 yrds 2 TDs, 1INT
16-7 overall playoff record--but the losses sure are ugly.

It's easier to see Manning's and Bradys flaws because they are current. It's harder to remember Montana's flaws and failures because all we see are the highlights.

Montana was helped by some incredible defenses. His last 3 Super Bowl teams gave up only 80 points combined over 9 playoff games (8.9ppg) - 14 of those points were given up by the 9ers offense and special teams. The most points SF gave up in any one game in those 3 runs was 16 points. When you only have to put up 17 points to win, it gets a lot easier. Montanas 4 teams that won Super Bowls their defenses ranked 2nd, 1st, 8th and 3rd in those years. To contrast, the Colts team that won the Super Bowl...their defense was ranked 23rd that season.

A valid criticism of Joe is that he was constantly hurt or playing with nagging injuries. In fact, in his 15 years of being a NFL QB, only 2 times did he start all 16 games (one being a strike shortened season of 82'). 6 times he started 13 games or less including one season of being the backup, which is unfathomable into today's game. That would have been like Indy holding on to Peyton last season and having him caddy for Andrew Luck. Economic structures and roster limitations now make this almost impossible. Manning, on the other hand, or Favre before him has been an example of amazing health, 2011 aside. He has started every game he's ever played in. That's some amazing Shit right there

Manning vs Brady
Peyton Manning has lost six playoff games where he had a passer rating over 85 (9-6). He has won two playoff games with a passer rating under 75 (2-4). Tom Brady has lost three playoff games where he had a passer rating over 85 (9-3). He has won five playoff games with a passer rating under 75 (5-3) Using those facts it's going to be really hard to argue conclusively that Tom Brady hasn't been assisted by his teammates more than Manning. Manning's struggles, both against the Patriots and in the postseason, go well beyond Manning himself.
With that said, the lack of a glaring reason for those struggles gets Manning the "choke artist" label, while Brady's early playoff successes have given many other fans blinders.

So what do ya'll think?

[SortaCreative]

this seems like a lot of work to go unread.

[PorkChop]

No he isn't, end of discussion.

[Messiah]

You cannot possibly hold it against Joe Montana for San Francisco having a terrific defense when the only reason Peyton Manning has a Super Bowl is in fact because his defense balled out in the postseason.

There is no argument for Manning being a better quarterback than Montana. Nothing at all. Nobody in the Super Bowl era matches Montana's equal amounts of success in both the regular season and postseason. If you want to throw stats, Joe Montana's 1989 season is still the best QB rating any QB has ever posted regular season + postseason combined. Montana didn't have a drop off of performance. Montana was just as good regardless of the circumstance. That is my issue with Manning. Manning is for some reason clearly worse in the postseason than he is in the regular season. And while yes, naturally you are facing better defenses, you can still tell Manning isn't the same player. At the very least, an obvious drop-off from how he typically performs.

I don't think any QB in NFL history has an argument over Montana. That isn't to say Peyton isn't great - he has a legitimate argument as the #2 QB of all-time. Montana was just excellent consistently.

[Everlong]

At a time when passing-game concepts are soaring to complex new levels, Manning maintains an unprecedented, unparalleled mastery of his offense.

Conversely, you could easily make the point that Manning has benefitted from an era of hamstrung defenses. In fact, you could go a step further and make an additional point that the reason those defenses have been hamstrung has been in response to two different high-profile failures by Manning in the playoffs, so in a sense, the league has adapted itself specifically to fit its most recognizable star.

It is evident, however, that Manning transcended eras with his record-breaking 55 touchdowns and league-leading 342.3 yards/game.

'

You'll never hear me argue that Manning's 2013 season wasn't impressive, but to say it transcended eras is basically the opposite of what's really more likely to be true -- it defined the new era of defensive football that we're currently in. Offenses are able to take so many liberties now that defenders can barely touch receivers. While Manning's 2013 season and 2004(or 2005, son't remember) season and Rodgers' 2011 season are statistically perhaps the best single season performances ever, I'd say Montana's 89 season and Marino's 84 season are more impressive simply because they put up gaudy stats in a much more difficult era.

Also, you said you wondered why nobody brings up Montana's playoff losses... only to mention his 16-7 record and four Super Bowl wins. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Peyton have a losing record in the postseason, or at least close to .500? Not that I really enjoy using wins as a metric in judging individual achievement, but if we're going to do it, let's not pretend like Peyton is anywhere near Montana's level in that regard.

[Messiah]

You'll never hear me argue that Manning's 2013 season wasn't impressive

I'll argue it.

Check that. It was impressive, but not as impressive as the numbers indicate. Throughout the season, the Denver Broncos as a team were clearly a step below the Seattle Seahawks and I never got a feeling they were all that dominant. I think Manning had an even better season in 2004, a season which goes more and more underrated by the second. That was Peyton at his absolute best. I think I was more impressed by Brady in '07 and Rodgers in '11 as well, not to mention Steve Young in 1994, the aforementioned Joe Montana in 1989, and Dan Marino in 1984.

Not to take away from what Manning accomplished in 2013. It was impressive. But I look beyond the bulk numbers. I never got the feeling he was playing at a level that A-Rod or Brady were playing at during their seasons and still would not consider his '13 season his best year. That belongs to what he accomplished in '04, which was a spectacular season.

It's difficult to compare QB seasons from different eras. Strictly talking post-2004, I still wouldn't put Manning's 13 season close to the top. Still a damn good season though and it is a testament to how good Peyton has been that it isn't even his best season IMO.

[DanielsonTHAGOAT]

I feel like the whole "if he played in this era" argument is kind of a cop out because people use it so much and it makes no sense. For example; LeBron is the best player in the NBA since Jordan, his statistics back that up. His resume backs it up. However people say "if LeBron played in the 90s he wouldn't even be this great". Same thing applies to the NFL, yes rules now favor the offense but how can we completely rule out defenses in the NFL? With defenses like the Bengals, Kansas City, Seattle, 49ers in 2013, there's no way you can tell me you can't have a shutdown defense in the NFL.

I just feel like that argument is really thin.

[Everlong]

If you can't attempt to compare players across eras and use the context of those eras for comparison, then there's literally no point in attempting to determine who is the greatest of all time.

[Messiah]

While I agree with you to an extent, it is why when comparing statistics, you have to remember the era they played in and put it into context. QB Rating is undeniably inflated in today's game, thus comparing Marino's QB rating in the 80s and Manning's QB rating in the 00s simply isn't fair. That stat has been inflated.

I wouldn't say Marino's season was better simply because of the era he played in. And I am of the belief that the passing game nowadays isn't that much easier than it was in the 90s (there are only factors that play into this rather than the rules, one being how better offensive scheming has become and it all began with the development of Air Coryell). I think Marino's '84 season is better because he was more dominant compared to his peers than Manning was. I just never got the feeling watching Manning play that I did with Rodgers in 2011, Brady in 2007, etc. I imagine it was the same with Marino '84 considering how much better he was than everyone else at the time.

[Messiah]

If you can't attempt to compare players across eras and use the context of those eras for comparison, then there's literally no point in attempting to determine who is the greatest of all time.

I can attempt it. I just don't like to do it.

But all you have to do is look at the numbers they put up compared to their peers. The comment was more because I don't feel like having to dig up a bunch of other passing seasons I may have forgotten. But I would reckon Manning's 2013 season would not have much of an argument, if any, for the best.

Of course, if that wasn't directed at me, then nvm, lol

[Everlong]

^It was directed at Danielson haha.

[Bj24honaker]

Yo stole this from my FB and made it as your own !

[Messiah]

[HFX]

Yo stole this from my FB and made it as your own !

Do YOU have proof of that? I don't doubt you, I just want to laugh.

[Romo]

[HFX]

This reminds me of this.

[Str8Shooter]

He actually said he wrote it too, I thought he said he found it.

[HFX]

He actually said he wrote it too, I thought he said he found it.

He said he found the stuff he had previously written. At least that's how I interpret this.

I found a collection of stats, articles, and stuff I personally wrote when I had a debate about why Manning is the greatest of all time aka THA GOAT. I thought I'd share it with ya'll and see what kind of havoc I can stir..

[Everlong]

Yo stole this from my FB and made it as your own !

Oooooooh snap!

@Bj24honaker do you have proof??

[Romo]

At age 37, after recovering from four neck surgeries (and a risky surgical procedure he doesn't talk about), and after coming to a new team and a new town, he has won 28 of 35 games ... and set every season passing record in the league's annals.He earned an unparalleled fifth NFL MVP award He has been selected to more Pro Bowls (13) than any other quarterback. He has won the second-most games of any quarterback in league history. In 13 of 15 seasons he has been to the postseason, won division titles and finished with double-digit victories. He has the highest number of game-winning drives. He holds or shares 55 regular-season and postseason records. Watching Manning play quarterback is a joy and a privilege. At a time when passing-game concepts are soaring to complex new levels, Manning maintains an unprecedented, unparalleled mastery of his offense. There's no other quarterback who carries the same level of pre-snap responsibility and handles it so deftly. Peyton's remarkable 55-touchdown season at age 37 after concern his neck problems could end his career means he has been better in the twilight with his second team than Montana was with his (Chiefs).Manning has always been a passer first. As a rookie, he threw for 3,739 yards and set a rookie record (since tied by Russell Wilson) with 26 touchdowns no QB has been this good for as long as he has.
In all 15 seasons he's played, In all 15 seasons he's played, Manning has had 3700+ yards, 26+ TD passes, and 300+ completions. All other QBs: 61 such seasons

Lets compare Peyton Manning 2013 season to) Dan Marino (1984), Tom Brady (2007), Aaron Rodgers (2011), and Drew Brees (2011).

Year- 1984
QB- Dan Marino
TD- 48
Passing Yards/Game- 317.8
Passer Rating- 108.9
Comp %-64.2



As you can see by the pic Dan Marino was number 1 in
Passer Rating
TD
YPG
What becomes visually evident right away is that Marino was indisputably the best quarterback that season, putting up numbers unheard of for that time. A 5000+ yard season, along with 48 touchdowns, merits praise even in today's pass-heavy league, but stood as a statistical anomaly in '84. While many would describe Brees' 2011 season as a shattering of Marino's old passing yardage record, Marino still had a higher standard deviation score in this category. Oddly enough, his performance in regard to touchdowns and yards/game was still not as dominant compared to Manning in 2013, even in terms of standard deviations. Manning 2013 season > Marinos 1984

Year- 2011
QB, Drew Brees and Arron Rogers
TDs 45 for AR / 46 for DB
Passing Yards/Game- 309.5 for AR and 342.3 for DB
Passer Rating- AR 122.5 NFL record/ for DB 110.5
Comp % 71.2 for DB/ 68.3 for AR



The performances by Manning (2013) and Brees (2011) resemble one another, in that both QB's led the league in touchdowns and yards. Neither one was the most efficient when it came Passer Rating, falling short to Nick Foles's 2013 stretch of play and Aaron Rodgers' MVP season in 2011
It is evident, however, that Manning transcended eras with his record-breaking 55 touchdowns and league-leading 342.3 yards/game. The next highest number of touchdowns that year was 39 from Brees. Manning 2013 season > Brees 2011 season.

Brees did break the all-time record for total passing yards in 2011, but not with the authority of Manning's dominance in 2013, as Tom Brady and Matthew Stafford were also approaching that record the same year.

Year- 2007
Name- Tom Brady
TD- 50
Passing Yards/Game-300.4
Passer Rating- 117.2
Comp %- 68.9



Tom Brady's first MVP season in 2007 marks one of two seasons we'll look at in which the top QB led the league in all four stats examined here. No one else was above 2 standard deviations in any category. Brady was challenged by no one that year for any passing metric.

Year- 2013
Name- Peyton Manning
TD- 55
Passing Yards/game-342.3
Passer Rating-115.1
Comp %- 68.3



It was a record broken year for Peyton Manning and the Broncos
NFL Records are the following below

TeamPoints
The Broncos scored 606 points in 2013, breaking the record of 589 set by the New England Patriots in 2007.

Touchdowns
Denver's 76 touchdowns beat the previous record of 75, also held by the 2007 Patriots.

Players with 10 or more touchdowns
The Broncos' Four Horsemen - WRs Demaryius Thomas (14), Eric Decker (11), Wes Welker (10), and TE Julius Thomas (12) - all finished with at least 10 touchdowns in 2013, while RB Knowshon Moreno added 13 of his own to break this NFL record - by two players (previous record was three).

Passing First Downs
The Broncos converted 293 first downs through the air in 2013, with a small handful coming from QB Brock Osweiler in backup work. The previous record was 280 set by the Saints in 2011


Super Bowl Loss-
The super bowl loss for Peyton Manning was a huge blow to his legacy Manning has lowest QB rating of super bowl since Rex Grossman loses 40 to 8...... OUCH......The Seahawks took on an offense that scored an NFL-record 606 points and held them without a first down in the first quarter. Denver didn't score until the final play of the third quarter. At one point the Broncos had 11 yards and the Seahawks had 15 point.. The Seahawks took on an offense that scored an NFL-record 606 points and held them without a first down in the first quarter. Denver didn't score until the final play of the third quarter. Denver had 306 yards (just a measly 4.8 per play), and a lot of that came after the game was well out of reach Peyton Manning's 73.5 passer rating in Super Bowl XLVIII is the lowest since Rex Grossman in Super Bowl XLI (68.3). In his defense He isnt the only one who has had playoff woes ,I wonder why no one has mentioned Joe Montana's playoff losses.


1983 vs. Redskins - Loss 21-24, 27-48 passing for 347, 3 TDs 1 INT
1985--one and done - v. Giants - Loss 3-17, 26-47 passing, 296, obviously no TD's, 1 INT
1986--another one and done - vs. Giants - Loss 3-49 8-15, 98 yrds, 2 INTs -- did he finish this game?
1987--another one and done - vs. Vikings - Loss 24-36, 12-26 passing, 109 yrds, 1 INT - finish this game?
1990--vs. Giants - loss 13-15, 18-26, 190 yrds, 1 TD, 0 INTs
1993 with Chiefs - vs. Bills - loss 13-30--9-23 for 125 yrds, 0tds 1 INT
1994--one and done with Chiefs - vs. Dolphins-- loss 17-27, 26-37, 314 yrds 2 TDs, 1INT
16-7 overall playoff record--but the losses sure are ugly.

It's easier to see Manning's and Bradys flaws because they are current. It's harder to remember Montana's flaws and failures because all we see are the highlights.

Montana was helped by some incredible defenses. His last 3 Super Bowl teams gave up only 80 points combined over 9 playoff games (8.9ppg) - 14 of those points were given up by the 9ers offense and special teams. The most points SF gave up in any one game in those 3 runs was 16 points. When you only have to put up 17 points to win, it gets a lot easier. Montanas 4 teams that won Super Bowls their defenses ranked 2nd, 1st, 8th and 3rd in those years. To contrast, the Colts team that won the Super Bowl...their defense was ranked 23rd that season.

A valid criticism of Joe is that he was constantly hurt or playing with nagging injuries. In fact, in his 15 years of being a NFL QB, only 2 times did he start all 16 games (one being a strike shortened season of 82'). 6 times he started 13 games or less including one season of being the backup, which is unfathomable into today's game. That would have been like Indy holding on to Peyton last season and having him caddy for Andrew Luck. Economic structures and roster limitations now make this almost impossible. Manning, on the other hand, or Favre before him has been an example of amazing health, 2011 aside. He has started every game he's ever played in. That's some amazing Shit right there

Manning vs Brady
Peyton Manning has lost six playoff games where he had a passer rating over 85 (9-6). He has won two playoff games with a passer rating under 75 (2-4). Tom Brady has lost three playoff games where he had a passer rating over 85 (9-3). He has won five playoff games with a passer rating under 75 (5-3) Using those facts it's going to be really hard to argue conclusively that Tom Brady hasn't been assisted by his teammates more than Manning. Manning's struggles, both against the Patriots and in the postseason, go well beyond Manning himself.
With that said, the lack of a glaring reason for those struggles gets Manning the "choke artist" label, while Brady's early playoff successes have given many other fans blinders.

So what do ya'll think?

A google search of various texts from the post led me to these





Charts
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