20 Years Ago Today...

[UTK]

Can somebody explain to me how Nirvana changed music? I don't see it.

They were the forerunners of the Grunge style that typified 90s rock and is still seen in a lot of the biggest rock acts today. Rock went from being typified by overly glamorous, showy hair metal to a bunch of dudes jamming in a garage. It just seemed so much more real and attainable. Think about it, it's just so much easier to forge a connection with a group of musicians that feel like they're on your level, like Nirvana, as opposed to these huge arena rock bands from the 80s with their ridiculous outfits and stage shows. Nirvana helped bring rock back down from being about the show and the spectacle to being about realism and the music and actual people.

Hugely popular groups like Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, Foo Fighters etc. all have their roots based in what Nirvana popularized. I'm not the biggest Nirvana fan in the world, I do like quite a bit of their stuff but tend to prefer Foo Fighters/STP. But it's easy to recognize their influence, and most people who beat the "overrated" drum with them tend to not understand exactly how huge of a musical shift Nirvana helped to usher in the rock genre and how many bands since then have tried to mimic what they did.

Alright. I see it.

They're still garbage, though.

[Battleaxe]

I was a fan in my early to mid teens. Not so much these days, but I'll listen to a track or two for nostalgia reasons.

Want to see something interesting? Here's a man called 'El Duce' (real name Eldon Hoke), a friend of Courtney Love, who claims he was offered money by Courtney to kill Kurt by shooting him in the head, and making it look like a suicide.

<span><span>[youtube]<a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="<a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]</a>"><a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]</a></a></span></span>

Watch the whole thing, but around 2:55, you hear a woman cry in the distance (coming from El Duce's house) "Help us!". El Duce then swiftly ends the interview.

A few days after this interview, El Duce was found dead, placed on some traintracks.

My first thought was, "there is now way Hillbilly Jim is a reliable source" then they questioned it right away. Everything about that seemed staged and fake. Here is the thing. Cobain was a depressed drug addict that knew he was on his way out and shot himself. Case closed. No conspiracy. People just have a hard time accepting their "hero" could have shot himself.

Actually, here is the thing. It's clear you have no knowledge of the subject at all, and the tone of your comments suggest that you dislike the man personally (please explain what you mean by "he knew he was on his way out"). After doing a little research, most people with an open mind would probably come to the conclusion that the case should at least be re-opened, as it was rather hastily conducted.

Nirvana is my favorite band ever. It was the most incredible sound I had ever heard in my twelve-year-old life, and continues to be to this day. I've never fully understood the whole Nirvana-is-overrated sentiment that exists. I know where it comes from, and why it exists, I just don't agree with most of it.

To be fair, the fact Nirvana are your favourite band prejudices your point of view the same way ShaneO's suggested dislike of Cobain does his.

My anti-Nirvana sentiment comes from the fact they just never did it for me musically. Always preferred the Pixies. Also I imagine a lot of it comes from this "they changed music" sort of nonsense. It's my belief things were already heading in that general direction anyway. Nirvana and their appeal certainly helped matters, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they changed it as much as die hard Nirvana fans would like to think. Cobain's suicide has definitely played apart of their longevity. I don't want to diminish them completely and say had he survived and if he was still around today, they wouldn't be so well remembered but I don't think they'd be held in the light and esteem they are. That's just my personal opinion.

I agree, that's a fair point. I often let emotion trump reason when it comes to Nirvana, haha.

Your particular argument is one that I understand, and agree with to an extent, as I'll be the first to admit the fact that musicians who die young and tragically tend to become immortalized just for that reason, and Kurt Cobain is no different in that regard. As for the whole "changing music" thing, they certainly benefited from a right-place-right-time type situation, and the Pixies are without question the best example of a band who wrote the blueprint for Nirvana's sound. Anyone who thinks Nirvana pulled a brand new concept out of the sky is an idiot, but they did popularize the quiet-verse/loud-chorus song-writing structure (influenced almost entirely by the Pixies) that became a staple in modern rock from then on.

As far as if music was already heading in that direction goes, I think that's only partly true. There was eventually going to be an "underground, college-radio-rock" band that broke things open to cause a mainstream shift, but in what way? A lighter, R.E.M. kind of way, or a heavier, Alice In Chains kind of way? Some musical historians believe that a power-pop band like the Smithereens would have been responsible for the next shift in mainstream rock music, and that Nirvana just kind of beat them to it. There's no doubt that it was eventually going to happen, but when, and in what kind of way, is impossible to know. I think some may assume that a band like Pearl Jam or Soundgarden simply would have broken things open without Nirvana's lead, but as good as the material these bands were presenting at the time was (and is), it's my belief that none of it was quite as far of a departure from the hair metal sound as Nirvana's, and I think that aspect of their music is a big part of why the shift they caused was such a dramatic one. While my feelings about Nirvana probably do make it impossible for me to be completely objective, nevertheless, I'm still fairly skeptical about whether or not any of the other Seattle bands could have created the same kind of immediate change in landscape.

[Daz]

I was a fan in my early to mid teens. Not so much these days, but I'll listen to a track or two for nostalgia reasons.

Want to see something interesting? Here's a man called 'El Duce' (real name Eldon Hoke), a friend of Courtney Love, who claims he was offered money by Courtney to kill Kurt by shooting him in the head, and making it look like a suicide.

<span><span>[youtube]<a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="<a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]</a>"><a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]</a></a></span></span>

Watch the whole thing, but around 2:55, you hear a woman cry in the distance (coming from El Duce's house) "Help us!". El Duce then swiftly ends the interview.

A few days after this interview, El Duce was found dead, placed on some traintracks.

My first thought was, "there is now way Hillbilly Jim is a reliable source" then they questioned it right away. Everything about that seemed staged and fake. Here is the thing. Cobain was a depressed drug addict that knew he was on his way out and shot himself. Case closed. No conspiracy. People just have a hard time accepting their "hero" could have shot himself.

Actually, here is the thing. It's clear you have no knowledge of the subject at all, and the tone of your comments suggest that you dislike the man personally (please explain what you mean by "he knew he was on his way out"). After doing a little research, most people with an open mind would probably come to the conclusion that the case should at least be re-opened, as it was rather hastily conducted.

Nirvana is my favorite band ever. It was the most incredible sound I had ever heard in my twelve-year-old life, and continues to be to this day. I've never fully understood the whole Nirvana-is-overrated sentiment that exists. I know where it comes from, and why it exists, I just don't agree with most of it.

To be fair, the fact Nirvana are your favourite band prejudices your point of view the same way ShaneO's suggested dislike of Cobain does his.

My anti-Nirvana sentiment comes from the fact they just never did it for me musically. Always preferred the Pixies. Also I imagine a lot of it comes from this "they changed music" sort of nonsense. It's my belief things were already heading in that general direction anyway. Nirvana and their appeal certainly helped matters, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they changed it as much as die hard Nirvana fans would like to think. Cobain's suicide has definitely played apart of their longevity. I don't want to diminish them completely and say had he survived and if he was still around today, they wouldn't be so well remembered but I don't think they'd be held in the light and esteem they are. That's just my personal opinion.

I agree, that's a fair point. I often let emotion trump reason when it comes to Nirvana, haha.

Your particular argument is one that I understand, and agree with to an extent, as I'll be the first to admit the fact that musicians who die young and tragically tend to become immortalized just for that reason, and Kurt Cobain is no different in that regard. As for the whole "changing music" thing, they certainly benefited from a right-place-right-time type situation, and the Pixies are without question the best example of a band who wrote the blueprint for Nirvana's sound. Anyone who thinks Nirvana pulled a brand new concept out of the sky is an idiot, but they did popularize the quiet-verse/loud-chorus song-writing structure (influenced almost entirely by the Pixies) that became a staple in modern rock from then on.

As far as if music was already heading in that direction goes, I think that's only partly true. There was eventually going to be an "underground, college-radio-rock" band that broke things open to cause a mainstream shift, but in what way? A lighter, R.E.M. kind of way, or a heavier, Alice In Chains kind of way? Some musical historians believe that a power-pop band like the Smithereens would have been responsible for the next shift in mainstream rock music, and that Nirvana just kind of beat them to it. There's no doubt that it was eventually going to happen, but when, and in what kind of way, is impossible to know. I think some may assume that a band like Pearl Jam or Soundgarden simply would have broken things open without Nirvana's lead, but as good as the material these bands were presenting at the time was (and is), it's my belief that none of it was quite as far of a departure from the hair metal sound as Nirvana's, and I think that aspect of their music is a big part of why the shift they caused was such a dramatic one. While my feelings about Nirvana probably do make it impossible for me to be completely objective, nevertheless, I'm still fairly skeptical about whether or not any of the other Seattle bands could have created the same kind of immediate change in landscape.

It's definitely an interesting argument. One we can never really know the answer to, but it's intriguing to theorize.

[Hanley!]

While my feelings about Nirvana probably do make it impossible for me to be completely objective, nevertheless, I'm still fairly skeptical about whether or not any of the other Seattle bands could have created the same kind of immediate change in landscape.

You could well be right, sir.





But Alice in Chains are still better.

[Hanley!]

It's also interesting to think of what effect Andrew Wood's early death might have had on the landscape. Not that I think Mother Love Bone could have been as big as some of the other Seattle bands ended up becoming, but he certainly had an impact on the grunge scene, as did his death.

[ShaneOfan]

I was a fan in my early to mid teens. Not so much these days, but I'll listen to a track or two for nostalgia reasons.

Want to see something interesting? Here's a man called 'El Duce' (real name Eldon Hoke), a friend of Courtney Love, who claims he was offered money by Courtney to kill Kurt by shooting him in the head, and making it look like a suicide.

<span>[youtube]<a class="smarterwiki-linkify" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2nK5IQs_g[/youtube]</a></span>

Watch the whole thing, but around 2:55, you hear a woman cry in the distance (coming from El Duce's house) "Help us!". El Duce then swiftly ends the interview.

A few days after this interview, El Duce was found dead, placed on some traintracks.

My first thought was, "there is now way Hillbilly Jim is a reliable source" then they questioned it right away. Everything about that seemed staged and fake. Here is the thing. Cobain was a depressed drug addict that knew he was on his way out and shot himself. Case closed. No conspiracy. People just have a hard time accepting their "hero" could have shot himself.

Actually, here is the thing. It's clear you have no knowledge of the subject at all, and the tone of your comments suggest that you dislike the man personally (please explain what you mean by "he knew he was on his way out"). After doing a little research, most people with an open mind would probably come to the conclusion that the case should at least be re-opened, as it was rather hastily conducted.

Nirvana is my favorite band ever. It was the most incredible sound I had ever heard in my twelve-year-old life, and continues to be to this day. I've never fully understood the whole Nirvana-is-overrated sentiment that exists. I know where it comes from, and why it exists, I just don't agree with most of it.

It isn;t clear I have no knowledge it's clear I have not my self be blinded by how I feel about a musician. There is no real evidence that anything other then suicide happened. They have never reopened it because it is not worth reopening. He killed himself. It doesn't take an open mind to conclude anything else it takes one that does not want to believe the truth. Who cares if he had a lot of drugs in him. He was a junkie that constantly had a lot of drugs in him and had built a tolerance. As for knowing he was on his way out he got to the point where his music was repetitive and he became everything he hated.

[Hanley!]

he got to the point where his music was repetitive and he became everything he hated.

Nirvana only had 3 studio albums and they've all very much got their own sound. I mean they're all recognisably Nirvana, but there is a clear progression there. I would consider it very unfair to suggest that they were stagnating by the time Kurt died.

Also, I'm pretty sure In Utero was Kurt's favourite of their albums.

[Battleaxe]

While my feelings about Nirvana probably do make it impossible for me to be completely objective, nevertheless, I'm still fairly skeptical about whether or not any of the other Seattle bands could have created the same kind of immediate change in landscape.

You could well be right, sir.





But Alice in Chains are still better.

"Outrageous" isn't even the word!

But I'd say they're probably my second favorite out of the "Big Four", followed by Soundgarden, then Pearl Jam.

It isn;t clear I have no knowledge it's clear I have not my self be blinded by how I feel about a musician. There is no real evidence that anything other then suicide happened. They have never reopened it because it is not worth reopening. He killed himself. It doesn't take an open mind to conclude anything else it takes one that does not want to believe the truth. Who cares if he had a lot of drugs in him. He was a junkie that constantly had a lot of drugs in him and had built a tolerance. As for knowing he was on his way out he got to the point where his music was repetitive and he became everything he hated.

Truth be told, I also believe it was suicide, personally; I just didn't care for your tone.

Repetitive? Like Hanley! implied, In Utero was their most artistically adventurous work, and those who knew Kurt have alluded to the fact that before his death, he was starting to move in a songwriting direction that was "truly special", to quote Michael Stipe. And I still don't see what you mean by "knowing he was on his way out". What is your source? I'm just curious because exactly what was going on in the mind of Kurt Cobain during his last weeks/months of life has been theorized about for twenty years now. Speculation still goes on in every way possible; there are reports that Nirvana were breaking up and that Kurt was going to become a solo artist, reports that he was going to "quit" the music business all together, reports that they were going to take a hiatus, and reports that they were simply going to start moving in a different musical direction.

[ShaneOfan]

While my feelings about Nirvana probably do make it impossible for me to be completely objective, nevertheless, I'm still fairly skeptical about whether or not any of the other Seattle bands could have created the same kind of immediate change in landscape.

You could well be right, sir.





But Alice in Chains are still better.

"Outrageous" isn't even the word!

But I'd say they're probably my second favorite out of the "Big Four", followed by Soundgarden, then Pearl Jam.

It isn;t clear I have no knowledge it's clear I have not my self be blinded by how I feel about a musician. There is no real evidence that anything other then suicide happened. They have never reopened it because it is not worth reopening. He killed himself. It doesn't take an open mind to conclude anything else it takes one that does not want to believe the truth. Who cares if he had a lot of drugs in him. He was a junkie that constantly had a lot of drugs in him and had built a tolerance. As for knowing he was on his way out he got to the point where his music was repetitive and he became everything he hated.

Truth be told, I also believe it was suicide, personally; I just didn't care for your tone.

Repetitive? Like Hanley! implied, In Utero was their most artistically adventurous work, and those who knew Kurt have alluded to the fact that before his death, he was starting to move in a songwriting direction that was "truly special", to quote Michael Stipe. And I still don't see what you mean by "knowing he was on his way out". What is your source? I'm just curious because exactly what was going on in the mind of Kurt Cobain during his last weeks/months of life has been theorized about for twenty years now. Speculation still goes on in every way possible; there are reports that Nirvana were breaking up and that Kurt was going to become a solo artist, reports that he was going to "quit" the music business all together, reports that they were going to take a hiatus, and reports that they were simply going to start moving in a different musical direction.

Sorry, I was referring to the likely break up. I personally don't think Kurt would have been a success on his own nor do I think he thought he would be either.