Sexuality: Is it a choice?

[Hanley!]

I think where the disconnect is coming from is look at where everyone who is involved in this is from. Hanley is from Ireland, Viazon is from England, Circled Square lives in Canada. We have different experiences. Now is Circled Square being a little short-sighted here? Yeah, probably so, and I mean that with no offense. But if I was just arguing with another American, I would agree with what he is saying. To make it seem like the majority of gay people live in fear is kind of an exaggeration. Except it is true, just it doesn't apply to where we live.

I'm trying to word it the best I can. Basically what I'm saying is, both sides are right here. I think what CS is saying is being taken out of context a tad, but he isn't looking at the bigger picture either. There are a lot of places in the world where homosexuality is 100% forbidden. That has to be taken into account to, especially when we have so many people on this site from so many different places in the world.

Hope I explained that well.

I don't think my position is informed all that much by my country. There are obviously countries where discrimination against homosexuals is much more severe, but I don't think there's a huge difference between America and Ireland.

But I don't think there's a country on earth where being gay isn't a disadvantage. We have it better than many countries, but in Ireland and much of the United States gay couples can't get married. They have more trouble adopting. Even when they can do these things, many people don't respect their right to be spouses or parents.

Their suicide rates are higher. They're more likely to be bullied. If they're religious, their church may not accept them. If their families are religious, there will be tension. They're less represented in government. They're less represented in the media.

There is no societal advantage to being gay. Anywhere. It's not a choice. Though even if it were, it would be as valid as any other one.

[Kein]

Wow I am really late to this thread. There is a lot of shit goin down! Hahaha. I like this. I don't want to butt in on your guys' discussion but I would like to state my opinion on the opening post, is it choice or not?

And I believe it is a mix. I am kind of surprised how extremely black and white a lot of you are on this.

On one side, emotions are hard to control, you can't help some of them and I think the whole love aspect slants peoples idea that it is completely uncontrollable what your sexual orientation is. Afterall, we tend to think of love and who we have sex with a bit hand in hand, this is just general speak I know there are always exceptions, I am just sayin.

The other side though, is we LIKE things, we have reasons we like things, we have rational on why we like things and dislike things. Some guys like it up the butt, it feels good, they choose to take it up the butt. Sure, a woman can give them similar or same pleasures but who they choose to do it is a mix of preference, and emotional.

A lot of this also has to do with upbringing, people have spoken about gays being discriminated against, I think there would be a lot more gays if it wasn't so looked down upon. Not because they feel okay to come out, but because people would be more open to explore and try things. I feel like there is a ridiculous amount more bi/lesbian girls because it seems girl on girl action is more okay among the general community. More girls are willing to be bi-curious and try things. They find what they like, they know their preference and choose where to go with it. I don't think guys get that chance, and so it is ingrained into our heads gay is gross, don't even go there, don't even try it. No chances.

[Circled Square]

I see what Tim is saying when it comes to me disagreeing with homosexuality.

I disagree with the approach we have to it. It's abnormal behavior in the grand scheme of things and should be treated as such. Not by you or me, but by science - trying to see if there's a common link in all Gay people that make them attracted to the same sex. It's like when I talked about transsexualism: We shouldn't be providing them hormones to actually go through with it. Most of them regret the surgery post op. We should be finding a way to treat them for that mental condition. It's certainly not homophobia for me to disagree with how we approach the subject of homosexuality.

[Daz]

I see what Tim is saying when it comes to me disagreeing with homosexuality.

I disagree with the approach we have to it. It's abnormal behavior in the grand scheme of things and should be treated as such. Not by you or me, but by science - trying to see if there's a common link in all Gay people that make them attracted to the opposite sex. It's like when I talked about transsexualism: We shouldn't be providing them hormones to actually go through with it. Most of them regret the surgery post op. We should be finding a way to treat them for that mental condition. It's certainly not homophobia for me to disagree with how we approach the subject of homosexuality.

It is however homophobia to use verbiage like "abnormal" not matter how well reasoned out you perceive your argument to be.

[Circled Square]

I see what Tim is saying when it comes to me disagreeing with homosexuality.

I disagree with the approach we have to it. It's abnormal behavior in the grand scheme of things and should be treated as such. Not by you or me, but by science - trying to see if there's a common link in all Gay people that make them attracted to the opposite sex. It's like when I talked about transsexualism: We shouldn't be providing them hormones to actually go through with it. Most of them regret the surgery post op. We should be finding a way to treat them for that mental condition. It's certainly not homophobia for me to disagree with how we approach the subject of homosexuality.

It is however homophobia to use verbiage like "abnormal" not matter how well reasoned out you perceive your argument to be.

I'm not going to tippy-toe in my post. The definition of abnormal is to go against the norm, sometimes it can be used to define weird behavior, but I didn't use it in that context. I don't want to be regulated by the homophobia police here just because I used the word abnormal.

[ShaneOfan]

Why would anyone choose to be a minority who is held down by, ridiculed, and often not afforded the same benefits of the rest of society?

[Circled Square]

Why would anyone choose to be a minority who is held down by, ridiculed, and often not afforded the same benefits of the rest of society?

Ask the people who choose - they aren't the majority - but ask them. Do I have all the answers? No. I never said that it's the ONLY way they become Gay, I just said it DOES happen.

[Daz]

I see what Tim is saying when it comes to me disagreeing with homosexuality.

I disagree with the approach we have to it. It's abnormal behavior in the grand scheme of things and should be treated as such. Not by you or me, but by science - trying to see if there's a common link in all Gay people that make them attracted to the opposite sex. It's like when I talked about transsexualism: We shouldn't be providing them hormones to actually go through with it. Most of them regret the surgery post op. We should be finding a way to treat them for that mental condition. It's certainly not homophobia for me to disagree with how we approach the subject of homosexuality.

It is however homophobia to use verbiage like "abnormal" not matter how well reasoned out you perceive your argument to be.

I'm not going to tippy-toe in my post. The definition of abnormal is to go against the norm, sometimes it can be used to define weird behavior, but I didn't use it in that context. I don't want to be regulated by the homophobia police here just because I used the word abnormal.

Well then by that logic, would calling other minorities abnormal, be acceptable? I don't think it would be. Because at the root of this, I don't think being gay is against the norm. It's not my norm, granted, but it's as natural and normal to homosexual people, as it is for you to be straight, and in this case, kind of a bigot.

[Circled Square]

I'm not going to have a discussion with you if you just call me a bigot. I was talking about how science approaches the issue, we shouldn't "let it go" and just say that's the end of it. It's an interesting issue that deserves to be researched to the fullest extent it possibly can be. I could make the argument, even though I know what you meant, that schizophrenic people talk to the voice in their head, that's "normal" for them. We should just let that go. It's obviously not the same thing - sexuality & schizophrenia - but applying that logic to other things would leave a lot of....erm, "stone unturned" lmao.

[Daz]

I'm not going to have a discussion with you if you just call me a bigot. I was talking about how science approaches the issue, we shouldn't "let it go" and just say that's the end of it. It's an interesting issue that deserves to be researched to the fullest extent it possibly can be. I could make the argument, if though I know what you meant, that schizophrenic people talk to the voice in their head, that's "normal" for them. We should just let that go. It's obviously not the same thing - sexuality & schizophrenia - but applying that logic to other things would leave a lot of....erm, "stone unturned" lmao.

I'll call you a bigot if I think you're being bigoted. That's my right, as it's your right to disagree with me.

And for what it's worth, I see what you're getting at with the science of it all, but not for the first time in this thread, you've equated homosexuality to a mental disorder, which is an ill conceived path to go down. And quite frankly it angers me.

[Circled Square]

I'm not going to have a discussion with you if you just call me a bigot. I was talking about how science approaches the issue, we shouldn't "let it go" and just say that's the end of it. It's an interesting issue that deserves to be researched to the fullest extent it possibly can be. I could make the argument, if though I know what you meant, that schizophrenic people talk to the voice in their head, that's "normal" for them. We should just let that go. It's obviously not the same thing - sexuality & schizophrenia - but applying that logic to other things would leave a lot of....erm, "stone unturned" lmao.

I'll call you a bigot if I think you're being bigoted. That's my right, as it's your right to disagree with me.

And for what it's worth, I see what you're getting at with the science of it all, but not for the first time in this thread, you've equated homosexuality to a mental disorder, which is an ill conceived path to go down. And quite frankly it angers me.

It could very well be related to somebody's mental makeup, or in some cases reaction to sexual related traumatic events. I don't know. I prefer to apply the mental illness label (label is a bad word for it I know) to transsexuals. My first post in the thread I mentioned the Gay gene, so you should know that I'm not implying they are all caused by mental illness.

Oh, and I'm completely fine with being called a bigot - I certainly don't get "angry" about it. Nobody's opinion on anything on a message board could get me "angry".....

[Daz]

I'm not going to have a discussion with you if you just call me a bigot. I was talking about how science approaches the issue, we shouldn't "let it go" and just say that's the end of it. It's an interesting issue that deserves to be researched to the fullest extent it possibly can be. I could make the argument, if though I know what you meant, that schizophrenic people talk to the voice in their head, that's "normal" for them. We should just let that go. It's obviously not the same thing - sexuality & schizophrenia - but applying that logic to other things would leave a lot of....erm, "stone unturned" lmao.

I'll call you a bigot if I think you're being bigoted. That's my right, as it's your right to disagree with me.

And for what it's worth, I see what you're getting at with the science of it all, but not for the first time in this thread, you've equated homosexuality to a mental disorder, which is an ill conceived path to go down. And quite frankly it angers me.

It could very well be related to somebody's mental makeup, or in some cases reaction to sexual related traumatic events. I don't know. I prefer to apply the mental illness label (label is a bad word for it I know) to transsexuals. My first post in the thread I mentioned the Gay gene, so you should know that I'm not implying they are all caused by mental illness.

Oh, and I'm completely fine with being called a bigot - I certainly don't get "angry" about it. Nobody's opinion on anything on a message board could get me "angry".....

I guess ignorance, regardless of the source makes me angry.

[Twister]

I see what Tim is saying when it comes to me disagreeing with homosexuality.

I disagree with the approach we have to it. It's abnormal behavior in the grand scheme of things and should be treated as such. Not by you or me, but by science - trying to see if there's a common link in all Gay people that make them attracted to the same sex. It's like when I talked about transsexualism: We shouldn't be providing them hormones to actually go through with it. Most of them regret the surgery post op. We should be finding a way to treat them for that mental condition. It's certainly not homophobia for me to disagree with how we approach the subject of homosexuality.

That's a bold statement to make. Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that 'most' transsexuals regret going through the sex change process?

[Circled Square]

Oh so if I don't bow down to the Almighty idea that homosexuality just "occurs randomly" I deserve to be called ignorant. I would actually argue that you're the ignorant one, so convinced that you're right on a subject with no definitive answer.

There's an entire website dedicated to sex change regret:

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

Have no idea how legit it is but it doesn't seem to be a "joke" site.

I will retract my previous statement that most of them regret it. I will however say that a nice chunk of them do. At least it seems to be that way. A great quote from that site I just found:

No. The fact is: surgery will not fix the underlying delusional psychological problems that caused the request for surgery.

[PorkChop]

Sexchangeregret.com doesn't sound like a website with an agenda at all.

[Circled Square]

Sexchangeregret.com doesn't sound like a website with an agenda at all.

The fuck do you want me to do, when looking for stories on post op regret?

http://www.circledsquareiswrong.net/transsexualism ?

[Daz]

Oh so if I don't bow down to the Almighty idea that homosexuality just "occurs randomly" I deserve to be called ignorant. I would actually argue that you're the ignorant one, so convinced that you're right on a subject with no definitive answer.

There's an entire website dedicated to sex change regret:

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

Have no idea how legit it is but it doesn't seem to be a "joke" site.

I will retract my previous statement that most of them regret it. I will however say that a nice chunk of them do. At least it seems to be that way. A great quote from that site I just found:

No. The fact is: surgery will not fix the underlying delusional psychological problems that caused the request for surgery.

What an asinine argument.

[Circled Square]

Oh so if I don't bow down to the Almighty idea that homosexuality just "occurs randomly" I deserve to be called ignorant. I would actually argue that you're the ignorant one, so convinced that you're right on a subject with no definitive answer.

There's an entire website dedicated to sex change regret:

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

Have no idea how legit it is but it doesn't seem to be a "joke" site.

I will retract my previous statement that most of them regret it. I will however say that a nice chunk of them do. At least it seems to be that way. A great quote from that site I just found:

No. The fact is: surgery will not fix the underlying delusional psychological problems that caused the request for surgery.

What an asinine argument.

But I- I tr-..I d-

I'm done.

[Twister]

Err.. okay. I was hoping for some sort of statistic or study to show how many people regret their sex change in comparison to those who remain happy with their decision. You know, something based on a true representation of the transsexual community rather than a website with an obvious agenda. Of course when you go on a website named 'sex change regret' it will seem like a 'nice chunk' of transsexuals regret having the procedure done, because that is who the website is aimed at. Why would a transsexual who is happy in their decision frequent a website named 'Sex Change Regret'? That link proves nothing.

[Circled Square]

Err.. okay. I was hoping for some sort of statistic or study to show how many people regret their sex change in comparison to those who remain happy with their decision. You know, something based on a true representation of the transsexual community rather than a website with an obvious agenda. Of course when you go on a website named 'sex change regret' it will seem like a 'nice chunk' of transsexuals regret having the procedure done, because that is who the website is aimed at. Why would a transsexual who is happy in their decision frequent a website named 'Sex Change Regret'? That link proves nothing.

It's not as if trannsexuals make up a huge percentage of the population. Remember that. How would I find a study on it? If one exists, I'd love to read it - I just can't imagine a bunch of transsexuals taking part in a survey asking them if they regret the surgery. My post certainly proved something - that people do regret it. The website was made to lure out people who DO regret it, and they can share their testimonials. It's not bias if it's from their perspective, there's no agenda if trannies decide to share their stories on that website. Just because it doesn't have a have a section raving about how the surgery does wonders doesn't mean everything on it is inaccurate. You know how many biased sources people use? Huffington Post, Jew York Times, plenty. It's not really uncommon LOL.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/i ... ret-switch

Here's a quote from the article:

“Gender dysphoria” (GD), we're told, is a condition in which a person’s body doesn’t match his true “gender.” But there is no blood test for it. There is no identifiable genetic marker. There is no medical exam at all. Rather, the diagnosis is made based on, as PsychCentral.com puts it, “strong and persistent cross-gender identification”; in other words, strong and persistent feelings that you actually are a member of the opposite sex.