Sexuality: Is it a choice?

[Daz]

Err.. okay. I was hoping for some sort of statistic or study to show how many people regret their sex change in comparison to those who remain happy with their decision. You know, something based on a true representation of the transsexual community rather than a website with an obvious agenda. Of course when you go on a website named 'sex change regret' it will seem like a 'nice chunk' of transsexuals regret having the procedure done, because that is who the website is aimed at. Why would a transsexual who is happy in their decision frequent a website named 'Sex Change Regret'? That link proves nothing.

It's not as if trannsexuals make up a huge percentage of the population. Remember that. How would I find a study on it? If one exists, I'd love to read it - I just can't imagine a bunch of transsexuals taking part in a survey asking them if they regret the surgery. My post certainly proved something - that people do regret it. The website was made to lure out people who DO regret it, and they can share their testimonials. It's not bias if it's from their perspective, there's no agenda if trannies decide to share their stories on that website. Just because it doesn't have a have a section raving about how the surgery does wonders doesn't mean everything on it is inaccurate. You know how many biased sources people use? Huffington Post, Jew York Times, plenty. It's not really uncommon LOL.

Jew York times? Really. Come on dude, you're already looking like a pillock, and you're gonna throw something like that out there.

And also, you're missing the entire point of Twister's post. She's not disputing that a percentage of transsexual people regret the realignment surgery, or that the contents on the site are false. She's saying that that particular website is obviously biased in your favour, in this particular argument, because of it's contents. There's no reason for a website named "Sex Change Regret" to feature positive testimonials from those who don't regret the surgery, which means only one side of the argument is being presented. Which also happens to be the side you're representing to validate your points.

[Circled Square]

Jew York Times was a joke. Come on now. You haven't heard that one before? You can't blame me for posting something that favors my position - it's not as if there's a neutral website that's not bias at all. They are very hard to find. I don't look like a stupid person, by the way. Everytime I read your posts, I'm reminded of this:



I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. I'm fine with you calling me a bigot, even if I believe it's unwarranted. But you do NOT call me stupid. I didn't call you stupid. Same with ignorant - don't throw around shitty buzzwords. We don't see eye to eye on an issue. It doesn't warrant namecalling on either side.

[Twister]

Yes there seems to be a lot of point missing going on in this thread

Among female-to-male transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in men, no regrets were reported in the author's sample, and in the literature they amount to less than 1%. Among male-to- female transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in women, regrets are reported in 1-1.5%.

Source: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v05n04_05#preview

Okay so it's hardly a recent study, but it's a study non the less (from the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality - a totally non-biased source). I wouldn't say that the result suggests 'most' or even a 'nice chunk' of post gender reassignment surgery patients regret going through the procedure.

[Daz]

Jew York Times was a joke. Come on now. You haven't heard that one before? You can't blame me for posting something that favors my position - it's not as if there's a neutral website that's not bias at all. They are very hard to find. I don't look like a stupid person, by the way. Everytime I read your posts, I'm reminded of this:



I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. I'm fine with you calling me a bigot, even if I believe it's unwarranted. But you do NOT call me stupid. I didn't call you stupid. Same with ignorant - don't throw around shitty buzzwords. We don't see eye to eye on an issue. It doesn't warrant namecalling on either side.

Is buzzword your buzzword, you seem to throw it out every third post as if it's supposed to mean something. Are you trying to devalue my point, and how I feel, by misappropriating what I'm saying into some meaningless phrase? Cause I think that'd make you look pretty stupid. Although, the fact you have continually missed the point, compared homosexuality to mental disorders throughout this thread, acted indignant when somebody has actually challenged your point, and resorted to posting meaningless pictures and gifs in situations like this, is doing a pretty good job of that already. Not to mention throwing out a joke, anti-Semitic in nature, when you've clearly already aggravated people with your views.

At the end of the day, you don't agree with homosexuality. You've skirted around the issue, talked yourself in circles, claiming science this and science that, brought transsexuals into the mix but ultimately that's what it boils down to. And on that point, I fundamentally don't agree with your stance. Thus far your arguments have been baseless, and yes, I think it's stupid.

[Chewy]

You choose who you sleep with.

You don't choose who you want to sleep with.

[Circled Square]

Yes there seems to be a lot of point missing going on in this thread

Among female-to-male transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in men, no regrets were reported in the author's sample, and in the literature they amount to less than 1%. Among male-to- female transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in women, regrets are reported in 1-1.5%.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v05n04_05#preview

Okay so it's hardly a recent study, but it's a study non the less. I wouldn't say that the result suggests 'most' or even a 'nice chunk' of post gender reassignment surgery patients regret going through the procedure.

That study is from 1993. I have a feeling if you looked at the amount of transexuals in the world now, it would be a huge increase, percentage wise. Should be a good read though.

Again, I don't know how accurate this is: It mentions the suicide attempt rate is 41% in transsexual people.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/28 ... r-20140127

This quote is particularly interesting:

Having a mental health condition increased the chance that a transgender or gender-nonconforming person had attempted suicide, as did having a lower income or being HIV-positive. But researchers said that the most stunning finding was just how high the risk was for all transgender and gender-nonconforming people, no matter how much money they made, how much education they had, or whether they were single or married.

Even transgender people at comparatively "low" risk were still much more likely to have attempted suicide than the general population, they wrote, with "lows" often ranging from 30% to 40%. Transgender and gender-nonconforming people who had gotten graduate degrees, for instance, had a lifetime risk of attempting suicide of 31% -- lower than less-educated transgender people, but still astoundingly high.

They said in that article that transsexuals are victims of hate crimes. But, even the successful ones - who get degrees or make money - still have a high suicide rate.

Does that not make you think that the approach to somebody being a different gender isn't correct? That instead of changing them physically, we should be trying to change them mentally?

@Daz

I have no intention of having a discussion with you any further. Just as I tend to use the word "buzzword" a lot, you tend to just state that I'm "going in circles" yeah, no shit. That's how these things go. Only so many times you can talk about sexuality before the subject matter gets repetitive. It also wasn't necessarily anti semitic - the joke is about how The New York Times has a big Jewish influence. My definition of racism is certainly different than yours. It may have been insensitive or a tad bit out of place but come on now that's not what this thread is about.

I've also learned that if somebody disagrees with me, my argument is baseless by default just because I don't have people on my side. If everybody was like you the world would be puddy in somebody's hands.

[Daz]

Throwing out the word Jew in a defamatory fashion isn't anti-Semitic now? It's made ever worse when you consider the Hitler sig. You're a fucking clown son.

Your argument isn't baseless because I disagree with you, it's baseless because you chalk up things to personal experience whilst disregarding the rest of the world at large. You steer arguments so far of course and throw out skewed information as fact and disregard people when they make counterpoints. You use provocative language to incite people then act the victim when they rise to the bait, which I'm more than guilty of. You say don't resort to name calling and the like, whilst simultaneously posting imagery that suggests I have an ulterior motive, other than simply disagreeing with you on this particular point. Which isn't the case.

I don't want the world to be like me. I have no problem disagreeing with people. I do however want people across the board, no matter their sexual preference, to be respected and treated with the same rights as I have myself. Comparing their sexuality to mental disorders is offensive to me. Implying that transsexuals, who go through more mental anguish than either of us could ever fathom, should be treated like schizophrenics is insulting.

[PorkChop]

The high suicide rate among transgender people is because they're most likely bullied and estranged by their friends and families. Many people (like you, Circled Square) refuse to accept them as they are, but rather as somebody with a serious mental condition who is in need of intervention.

The world has a long way to go before accepting transgender people for who they are.

[Circled Square]

Throwing out the word Jew in a defamatory fashion isn't anti-Semitic now? It's made ever worse when you consider the Hitler sig. You're a fucking clown son.

I'm fucking sick of this attitude towards me. I don't know why I continue to post in these threads when everybody is so convinced that they know it all. I was only attempting to create discussion, which I did. You're a fucking clown of a moderator for calling another use a "fucking clown", I didn't use it as a bad thing, I just acknowledged the Jewish influence of the New York Times.

I suggest you read up on this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ochs_Sulzberger,_Jr.

@PorkChop

I don't contribute to them being hated or ridiculed. I want them to get the best help/care they can possibly get, and they don't get it through getting pumped up full of estrogen and having genital reconstructive surgery. I do refuse to believe that it's just human nature and that we should give everybody the special snowflake treatment whenever they want to change the way they are born.

@Daz

Sure even in that Walking Dead thread I only brought that up because of how people assumed I was a "Bigot", everything has been in response of what people have thrown at me. Hell I even said that me being attacked is not an excuse for me to automatically be right. You can read what you want to read and you will continue to do so regardless of if I tell you/show you otherwise.

[Daz]

Throwing out the word Jew in a defamatory fashion isn't anti-Semitic now? It's made ever worse when you consider the Hitler sig. You're a fucking clown son.

I'm fucking sick of this attitude towards me. I don't know why I continue to post in these threads when everybody is so convinced that they know it all. I was only attempting to create discussion, which I did. You're a fucking clown of a moderator for calling another use a "fucking clown", I didn't use it as a bad thing, I just acknowledged the Jewish influence of the New York Times.

I suggest you read up on this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ochs_Sulzberger,_Jr.

@PorkChop

I don't contribute to them being hated or ridiculed. I want them to get the best help/care they can possibly get, and they don't get it through getting pumped up full of estrogen and having genital reconstructive surgery. I do refuse to believe that it's just human nature and that we should give everybody the special snowflake treatment whenever they want to change the way they are born.

Nobody here is fucking convinced they know it all you sanctimonious little cunt. You were being defamatory, there is absolutely no denying it, and your attempts to backtrack now are pathetic. This whole thread hasn't been about you trying to promote discussion, it's about you pushing peoples buttons.

[JDD]

I half agree with some things circle squared is saying. Ill just say one thing, if people are born gay(which I believe is true) and we say its wrong to try and change how they were born and who they are then why is it okay for transexuals to change the way they are born? Why is that not wrong? If youre born gay, straight, male, or female, then you stay that way.

[Twister]

Yes there seems to be a lot of point missing going on in this thread

Among female-to-male transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in men, no regrets were reported in the author's sample, and in the literature they amount to less than 1%. Among male-to- female transsexuals after SRS, i.e., in women, regrets are reported in 1-1.5%.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v05n04_05#preview

Okay so it's hardly a recent study, but it's a study non the less. I wouldn't say that the result suggests 'most' or even a 'nice chunk' of post gender reassignment surgery patients regret going through the procedure.

That study is from 1993. I have a feeling if you looked at the amount of transexuals in the world now, it would be a huge increase, percentage wise. Should be a good read though.

You said yourself that transsexuals don't make up a huge number of the population, I don't imagine the figure cited in that study will have changed that much over the years. In fact this is a more recent study (1995-2000) which again suggests that:

non of the participants claimed to regret their decision to undergo gender-transforming surgery.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11564029

Again, I don't know how accurate this is: It mentions the suicide attempt rate is 41% in transsexual people.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/28 ... r-20140127

This quote is particularly interesting:

Having a mental health condition increased the chance that a transgender or gender-nonconforming person had attempted suicide, as did having a lower income or being HIV-positive. But researchers said that the most stunning finding was just how high the risk was for all transgender and gender-nonconforming people, no matter how much money they made, how much education they had, or whether they were single or married.

Even transgender people at comparatively "low" risk were still much more likely to have attempted suicide than the general population, they wrote, with "lows" often ranging from 30% to 40%. Transgender and gender-nonconforming people who had gotten graduate degrees, for instance, had a lifetime risk of attempting suicide of 31% -- lower than less-educated transgender people, but still astoundingly high.

They said in that article that transsexuals are victims of hate crimes. But, even the successful ones - who get degrees or make money - still have a high suicide rate.

Does that not make you think that the approach to somebody being a different gender isn't correct? That instead of changing them physically, we should be trying to change them mentally?

I think it's fair to suggest that the reason suicide rates appear to be so high in the transgender community is down to lack of acceptance and judgement from people who fail or refuse to understand them and what it's like to feel like you've been born with the wrong body, that alone can cause mental illness to manifest itself in a person. It's unfair to suggest transgender people have something 'wrong' with them mentally for feeling this way. Maybe if being transsexual was less of a taboo and more accepted then the suicide rates would drop as a result.

[Circled Square]

I didn't create the fucking thread. I simply gave my opinion which did not comply with the hivemind consensus that it's 100% natural and okay. I signed up here to talk wrestling, not politics. Don't let my Hitler sig fool you of that. This is not a platform to discuss all things social and political. Don''t call me a "little cunt" because that puts me in a tough spot. Do I fall for the trap and start flinging my shit at you, only to get banned for flaming? No. Leave me the fuck alone. I've enjoyed discussing this with Twisted, even if she doesn't agree with me - she hasn't resorted to try and make my argument look weak or calling me a little cunt. Even though, I'll reiterate again, I feel no hatred/anger towards you, you're making it very hard for me not to. It's just strange how emotional you're getting over this shit. I'm a wrestling fan discussing a social issue on the off topic board. I am no expert. Don't know why you're taking this as serious as you are.

[Chewy]

I half agree with some things circle squared is saying. Ill just say one thing, if people are born gay(which I believe is true) and we say its wrong to try and change how they were born and who they are then why is it okay for transexuals to change the way they are born? Why is that not wrong? If youre born gay, straight, male, or female, then you stay that way.

Because there is a thing called choice.

The only goal in life is to experience and many happy moment before you die. How you get there, provided legal and not at the expense of others happiness is of no concern.

[Viazon]

I half agree with some things circle squared is saying. Ill just say one thing, if people are born gay(which I believe is true) and we say its wrong to try and change how they were born and who they are then why is it okay for transexuals to change the way they are born? Why is that not wrong? If youre born gay, straight, male, or female, then you stay that way.

If you are a male and people have the ability to turn you into female and vice versa, and you wish to do so, you can. That makes it a choice. I could wake up tomorrow morning and decide I want get a sex change and become a woman. I would still be attracted to females.

You cannot choose who you are attracted to. Whether they are male or female.

[Twister]

I half agree with some things circle squared is saying. Ill just say one thing, if people are born gay(which I believe is true) and we say its wrong to try and change how they were born and who they are then why is it okay for transexuals to change the way they are born? Why is that not wrong? If youre born gay, straight, male, or female, then you stay that way.

Because being homosexual/bisexual/straight is a sexual orientation. By definition being transsexual is not. They are very different. To add, changing your gender is not illegal (in the UK anyway), so if someone wants to have gender reassignment surgery, they are well within their rights to do so.

[Viazon]

I didn't create the fucking thread. I simply gave my opinion which did not comply with the hivemind consensus that it's 100% natural and okay. I signed up here to talk wrestling, not politics. Don't let my Hitler sig fool you of that. This is not a platform to discuss all things social and political. Don''t call me a "little cunt" because that puts me in a tough spot. Do I fall for the trap and start flinging my shit at you, only to get banned for flaming? No. Leave me the fuck alone. I've enjoyed discussing this with Twisted, even if she doesn't agree with me - she hasn't resorted to try and make my argument look weak or calling me a little cunt. Even though, I'll reiterate again, I feel no hatred/anger towards you, you're making it very hard for me not to. It's just strange how emotional you're getting over this shit. I'm a wrestling fan discussing a social issue on the off topic board. I am no expert. Don't know why you're taking this as serious as you are.

He actually called you a sanctimonious little cunt.

[Str8Shooter]

This thread is perilously close to being locked, which is incredibly rare on here. Everybody keep things civil and don't resort to name calling, I'm including Mods in that as well. Argue your point, not each other.

[Circled Square]

I didn't create the fucking thread. I simply gave my opinion which did not comply with the hivemind consensus that it's 100% natural and okay. I signed up here to talk wrestling, not politics. Don't let my Hitler sig fool you of that. This is not a platform to discuss all things social and political. Don''t call me a "little cunt" because that puts me in a tough spot. Do I fall for the trap and start flinging my shit at you, only to get banned for flaming? No. Leave me the fuck alone. I've enjoyed discussing this with Twisted, even if she doesn't agree with me - she hasn't resorted to try and make my argument look weak or calling me a little cunt. Even though, I'll reiterate again, I feel no hatred/anger towards you, you're making it very hard for me not to. It's just strange how emotional you're getting over this shit. I'm a wrestling fan discussing a social issue on the off topic board. I am no expert. Don't know why you're taking this as serious as you are.

He actually called you a sanctimonious little cunt.

Fuck you, Viazon. Fuck you.

I half agree with some things circle squared is saying. Ill just say one thing, if people are born gay(which I believe is true) and we say its wrong to try and change how they were born and who they are then why is it okay for transexuals to change the way they are born? Why is that not wrong? If youre born gay, straight, male, or female, then you stay that way.

Because being homosexual/bisexual/straight is a sexual orientation. By definition being transsexual is not. They are very different.

I brought it up because it's still on the topic of sexuality. I mean how can you say feeling like a woman isn't a sexual issue, when you're a man?

[Viazon]

Seriously, what the fuck did I start?

I just thought I was posting a simple Walking Dead thread.