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Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

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Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Viazon » Sep 26, '17, 9:24 am

This is no doubt a big story in America right now. It's all they seem to talk about on Sky Sports News here in England so I can imagine how much coverage it's getting over there. But what is it all about? They are protesting something? What actually are they protesting about? Why are so many people angry about it?
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby prophet » Sep 26, '17, 10:32 am

Pretty sure it's a protest against racism and police brutality towards African-Americans.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Everlong » Sep 26, '17, 11:00 am

Here's a brief rundown.

So basically in 2016, Colin Kaepernick (former quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) began kneeling during the national anthem played before games. People didn't notice it for a few weeks, but ultimately someone picked up the story and asked him about it, and he said he didn't want to stand for the flag of a nation that is OK with racial inequality and police brutality against blacks, specifically the shooting of unarmed black people.

It became a big national story all throughout last year, and Kaepernick got a whole ton of attention because of it. Basically he became a political lightning rod, and conservatives/stereotypical "'MURICANs" flipped their shit that a rich athlete would dare to "disrespect the flag/anthem," taking it as a slight against the armed forces who fight and die for the country (a major stretch, yes, but this is what happened).

Kaepernick found himself out of a job after the season as his contract expired, and no other teams signed him. Anybody who knows anything about football agrees the guy is better than at least a handful of the starters currently in the league and all of the backups, but he was basically blackballed by the owners and teams for his political views/his kneeling, because people on the right are insane about "patriotism" and because NFL teams are so terrified to take on anything that could be remotely considered a "distraction."

However, other players started kneeling during the anthem, and racists across the United States couldn't handle the fact that black people are wiling to stand up for themselves and their civil liberties, so there's been more ongoing controversy. It had actually sort of started to die down, but then fucking Donald Trump decided to make it a key point of some ridiculous rally he was holding in Alabama, the racist redneck capital of the world. After that, racists and "MURICANs" took up their arms again and freaked out about athletes kneeling during the anthem. The fact that the President basically shat all over the cause of the athletes who were kneeling drew huge backlash from NFL owners, coaches and players, who then made many demonstrations of their own over this weekend, from kneeling to linking arms to not even coming out of the tunnel for the anthem.

Basically, this is a pretty easy issue to sort out if someone is a racist or not. And of course, Trump is using it to toss a bone to his base of mouthbreathing morons while also dividing people and distracting them from shit that actually matters.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Viazon » Sep 27, '17, 8:56 am

I have never understood extreme patriotism. And what is a flag really? It's just a peace of cloth with some colours on it. No one should be made to salute anything if they don't want to. It doesn't mean these athletes hate their country. Trump is a nutcase.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby AkydefGoldberg » Sep 27, '17, 11:09 am

What preceded this latest issue was basketball star Steph Curry turning down the invitation to the White House which led to the baby called the US President to throw his dummy out and say "I'm withdrawing the invitation", followed by LeBron James calling Trump a "bum" which was a correct observation.

Then last weekend saw many NFL teams publicly show their support with either locking arms or kneeling down. Jaguarsville owner Shahid Khan stood against Trump at Wembley, however I would have taken his stance seriously had he not donated $1m to Trump's ceremony. It's like Khan had no idea what Trump was like and is an ostentatious show of support because his players are being attacked.

It's been re-affirming to see coaches in the NFL and players (mainly of African-American origin that I've seen) speaking out in support and against Trump. A shame American golf players in the President Cup said they'd honour the flag with one of the participants, Davis Love, saying he agreed with the President but then again I'd not expect golf's pampered, corporate players to show any political inclinations. Too many sponsors to appease.

An absolute injustice that Kaepaernick is not on a team due to his brave stance and if an owner wanted to show Trump where to stick his whinging, they'd sign Colin. On a matter of principle, and as Tim said, he seems to be a good player than many in a squad but shirt sales may pick up.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby PorkChop » Sep 27, '17, 11:34 am

Viazon wrote:I have never understood extreme patriotism. And what is a flag really? It's just a peace of cloth with some colours on it. No one should be made to salute anything if they don't want to. It doesn't mean these athletes hate their country. Trump is a nutcase.

I've never understood patriotism at all, extreme or not. Coming from a certain country shouldn't be a matter of pride as you haven't achieved anything by being shat out of your mum's vagina in a certain place, whether this be in England or Ethiopia. I'm immensely grateful to come from a country which provides me with a good standard of living, but seeing "United Kingdom" on my birth certificate doesn't fill me with any pride.

When it comes to flags and national anthems though, I appreciate that they're (allegedly) symbolic of a country's identity and values but at the end of the day, it's just a flag and a song. There's a lot of man-children on the internet campaigning for a lot of these players to be fired for not standing up for a song, but I'd wager that a vast majority of these same men-children didn't campaign for firings and suspensions in light of some of the high-profile sexual assault and domestic violence cases which the NFL has had to deal with in recent years. I wonder why this is.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby The Legend » Sep 27, '17, 11:51 am

I'll sum it up even quicker than Tim did. There's a segment of American society that are truly pure-bred geniuses. No matter if they've only ever moved five miles from where they were born or met less than 100 people, they have life all figured out. If everyone just would listen to them and behave exactly how they tell them to, everyone's problems would be solved and the world would be a perfectly narrow place filled with only one type of person that is perfectly agreeable with other same typed people.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Everlong » Sep 27, '17, 1:39 pm

PorkChop wrote:
Viazon wrote:I have never understood extreme patriotism. And what is a flag really? It's just a peace of cloth with some colours on it. No one should be made to salute anything if they don't want to. It doesn't mean these athletes hate their country. Trump is a nutcase.

I've never understood patriotism at all, extreme or not. Coming from a certain country shouldn't be a matter of pride as you haven't achieved anything by being shat out of your mum's vagina in a certain place, whether this be in England or Ethiopia. I'm immensely grateful to come from a country which provides me with a good standard of living, but seeing "United Kingdom" on my birth certificate doesn't fill me with any pride.

When it comes to flags and national anthems though, I appreciate that they're (allegedly) symbolic of a country's identity and values but at the end of the day, it's just a flag and a song. There's a lot of man-children on the internet campaigning for a lot of these players to be fired for not standing up for a song, but I'd wager that a vast majority of these same men-children didn't campaign for firings and suspensions in light of some of the high-profile sexual assault and domestic violence cases which the NFL has had to deal with in recent years. I wonder why this is.


I think patriotism/nationalism is becoming less of a thing with our generation, but it's still fairly prevalent. The internet in particular has given people more exposure to the world and other cultures, even if they're not traveling themselves. As our generation was raised with the internet, that's at least given us the opportunity to learn from and empathize with people from all over the world.

I personally don't really give a fuck about being American. Like, I very much love my home and appreciate a lot of things about America, but I've never really considered "american" to be any part of my identity. I'm much more a citizen of the world than a citizen of any particular country. Ultimately, as you say, I have no control over what borders I was born inside.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby The Legend » Sep 27, '17, 1:48 pm

I disagree with not understanding/liking patriotism. I believe in pride in where you are from and I particularly believe strongly in wanting to help your country and its people above others. Mostly the world is too big a place for any group of people or any country to fix everything, but if you simply focus on helping those in your country you can make a bigger difference. I actually think we'd be better off if the world became a little bigger again, if everyone just turned to their own back yard and governments and economies just focused on functioning inside its own borders everyone would be better off. America has proven time and again that it doesn't understand everything going on in other places and "trying to help" usually just results in making a bigger mess than where it started.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Hanley! » Sep 27, '17, 3:55 pm

I've long thought that one of the most dangerous aspects of the American condition is this shared notion by much of its population that it's the "greatest country in the world". That mindset is harmful to the country. I doubt it will ever live up to that standard - despite having all of the resources to do so - until Americans stop thinking of the country in such a romanticized way.

It's okay to be proud of where you come from. But its important to accept that nowhere is perfect, and that all countries and societies should constantly strive to improve themselves and make life better for their citizens. I've noticed lately that a lot of American political commentators have a tendency to label certain negative behaviours as unAmerican. Which allows them to criticize the president or the government or voters while still holding up this hypothetical America as the ideal democracy. I'm not sure it's all that healthy.

Some people are bothered that football players are kneeling during the anthem because they don't like to see America being criticized. These people tend to be white dudes who have never had to face police brutality, and who won't have to worry about facing it in the future. It's easy for them to lash out at people of colour who are trying to change a system that's never failed them before. It's a simple case of people being self-centered.

I've heard certain critics say that people watch football to relax and unwind and that they don't want to have to deal with politics during their free time. That they shouldn't have to. Tough shit. It's a protest, it's not there for your convenience. It's supposed to intrude. Their methods in this case are actually downright considerate, and still people are finding reason to complain. Shut the fuck up. Being forced to engage with an uncomfortable issue for two minutes during your leisure time is far preferable to being shot and killed by the people who are supposed to be protecting you.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby The Legend » Sep 28, '17, 4:43 am

^^^ I agree with Steve majorly on one point. I feel like throughout history we were taught that our forefathers sought and worked desperately to make and prove America united together to be the greatest country in the world. Even if we fell short, that was the ideal that we worked towards and shot for.

Somewhere along the lines we went from striving to be great, to lying to ourselves and everyone and saying what we were already was great and we didn't need to improve in any areas.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Everlong » Sep 28, '17, 11:18 am

The Legend wrote:I disagree with not understanding/liking patriotism. I believe in pride in where you are from and I particularly believe strongly in wanting to help your country and its people above others. Mostly the world is too big a place for any group of people or any country to fix everything, but if you simply focus on helping those in your country you can make a bigger difference. I actually think we'd be better off if the world became a little bigger again, if everyone just turned to their own back yard and governments and economies just focused on functioning inside its own borders everyone would be better off. America has proven time and again that it doesn't understand everything going on in other places and "trying to help" usually just results in making a bigger mess than where it started.


See, most of this is different though. You're talking about more of a civic pride in the sense of wanting to do right by your community, which is not at all problematic. I'm talking about the sense of patriotism that involves strongly believing you're the greatest simply because you're from X place.

I disagree with the "America First" attitude, however, as I think we have become far too globally interconnected to ever again think of our interests and our interests only.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby The Legend » Sep 28, '17, 12:59 pm

Everlong wrote:I disagree with the "America First" attitude, however, as I think we have become far too globally interconnected to ever again think of our interests and our interests only.


Here's what I know, our global interconnectivity has screwed over most average Americans, particularly when it comes to the economic impact of those decisions. Jobs, particularly in manufacturing and other blue collar labor, leave our borders and there is nothing left behind to help the backbone of American society.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby Hanley! » Sep 28, '17, 3:56 pm

I agree with Tim on the 'America First' stuff. Obviously the American government's responsibility is first and foremost to the American people. Just as in any other country. But as the world becomes smaller, nations across the world should become more considerate of how their actions affect other countries and cultures also. It should ultimately make things better for everyone.
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Re: Can someone explain to me what this kneeling to the flag business is all about?

Postby DBSoT » Sep 29, '17, 9:27 am

The people criticizing players for kneeling are the same people that will stand in a concession line during the National Anthem. They keep talking about how this disrespects the troops, but they don't understand that this is what the troops are fighting for. The worst people are the ones that are planning to boycott the NFL because of the players kneeling. They are essentially protesting against people who are fighting for racial equality. That is the textbook definition of bigotry. I love being an American, but I hate the way people in this country romanticize it. We act like our country was built on the backs of good intentions and freedom. When in fact our history is much darker and includes many examples of flawed thoughts and ideals. It seems like many Americans believe that we are a finished product, that just needs to relax and celebrate our success. Whereas we should constantly be striving to be better.
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