Man United are broken and need to be fixed

[PorkChop]

Don't try claiming that Ferguson left behind a bad team. They were the Premier League champions.

Ferguson leaving was a huge blow for United, and he took the soul out of the club. Once he left, United were no longer intimidating, they were a team ready for the taking. There are glaring holes in the defence now Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra have left, the attack is weak (Di Maria is not the answer) and there's too much deadwood. Fellaini, Anderson, Rafael, Smalling, Evans, Hernandez, Young, Welbeck, Cleverley, Valencia, Kagawa, and probably a few others too need to be sold and replaced. Many of these have gone backwards in their development since Ferguson left, and now they're just not good enough.

I get the impression that certain players don't want to play for the club anymore. Van Persie in particular hasn't looked interested for some time, and if Rooney wasn't offered obscene wages, he'd likely be gone by now. United don't strike me as a hungry and determined team anymore. I feel Ferguson took that desire from them when he left.

The next five years or so could be disastrous for United unless a miracle happens, and I genuinely feel they could continue to linger around upper midtable for some time. This would be awful for the club in terms of attracting players and also merchandise sales - most of United's global fanbase exists purely because they were successful under Ferguson, and I feel that if things don't improve, Manchester United will fall out of fashion in the global market and lose a significant amount of income.

Van Gaal must deliver. The club can't afford for him to flop - figuratively and literally.

MK Dons are currently beating Manchester United 3-0.

[SKS]

Sir Alex really was a legend. I'm glad he's gone though, and it is nice to see United have a streak of failures for a little while.

I don't think the popularity will die down too drastically, but everyone loves a winner, and if they continue to lose (no CL, upper mid table finishes) I could see them taking a bit of a hit at least globally and in the States. It may be way too early to speculate on where they'll finish this season but it does seem like there's no heart in the club anymore, just three games in. With the roster they had last year and this year, there's no reason for them to be playing so poorly recently, drawing to Sunderland, losing to Swansea and now getting embarrassed by MK Dons. I'm not convinced Di Maria will be the saving grace for them either.

[prophet]

Also, whilst not the proper thread but I don't care, Celtic lost (again) and are out (again) of the Champions League!

[PorkChop]

4-0 to MK Dons.

@AkydefGoldberg @Tom

[AkydefGoldberg]

I'll reply to this tomorrow as I'm going to bed. Maybe if I sleep, tonight won't have happened.

[Tom]

Don't try claiming that Ferguson left behind a bad team. They were the Premier League champions.

Ferguson leaving was a huge blow for United, and he took the soul out of the club. Once he left, United were no longer intimidating, they were a team ready for the taking. There are glaring holes in the defence now Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra have left, the attack is weak (Di Maria is not the answer) and there's too much deadwood. Fellaini, Anderson, Rafael, Smalling, Evans, Hernandez, Young, Welbeck, Cleverley, Valencia, Kagawa, and probably a few others too need to be sold and replaced. Many of these have gone backwards in their development since Ferguson left, and now they're just not good enough.

I get the impression that certain players don't want to play for the club anymore. Van Persie in particular hasn't looked interested for some time, and if Rooney wasn't offered obscene wages, he'd likely be gone by now. United don't strike me as a hungry and determined team anymore. I feel Ferguson took that desire from them when he left.

The next five years or so could be disastrous for United unless a miracle happens, and I genuinely feel they could continue to linger around upper midtable for some time. This would be awful for the club in terms of attracting players and also merchandise sales - most of United's global fanbase exists purely because they were successful under Ferguson, and I feel that if things don't improve, Manchester United will fall out of fashion in the global market and lose a significant amount of income.

Van Gaal must deliver. The club can't afford for him to flop - figuratively and literally.

MK Dons are currently beating Manchester United 3-0.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. I do think Alex Ferguson did very well to win the league with the squad he had in his last season though. I would go as far as saying that it was his biggest achievement in terms of winning premier leagues. There were times we had to come from behind and get a victory and Van Persie's goals helped us an awful lot. Our performances were not even the greatest that season, despite our dominance in terms of points etc.

I think the change from Fergie to Moyes and now even Van Gaal is proving to have a huge effect on the players. The way Fergie motivated them, the fact that he was a constant with many players for numerous years cannot be replicated. With Van Gaal my biggest worry is that he may look too much into things. He has an extraordinary attention to detail and analyses everything. However, I think the players operate to their maximum by being allowed to be themselves, having a free roam that allows them to express themselves. I don't think Van Gaal will give his players that kind of the freedom; the freedom they had under Fergie.

I also have serious doubts over the formation. I don't understand why he insists on playing this everywhere he goes. It's the sort of ignorance that sometimes makes me question his ability. It's this way or no way. Its boring and predictable. And the players are clearly struggling with it. I would much rather he adopted a strategy that suits the players he has currently at the club as opposed to a "philosophy" of getting in the right players for his system. As it stands, it may take years for him to get the right players in to fit his system. If I was Man Utd maager, I would definately play a 4-4-2 diamond formation. I don't think it will bring us instant success and we may still need a couple more players (especially a central defender and holding midfielder) but I think we stand more of a chance of getting better results with it and bringing out the best in the players he has.

From a commerical perspective, I don't think it will effect us too much. Man Utd is a marketable brand, it has an established fan base globally and their pre season friendlies still fair pretty well. The extra money from competing in the champions league will obviously be lost which doesn't help things but I don't see their being a situation where Old Trafford starts seeing a reduced number of people attending games. Attracting quality players is already proving a problem (despite Di Maria). I do believe for a couple of seasons, if Van Gaal is gonna try and perfect his "philosophy" then we may be in the territory Liverpool were in for a few seasons until last year and may have to settle for Europa League or even no European football at all for a few seasons!

[Viazon]

Ha! Just seen the highlights and the who the goal scorers were. Benik Afobe. Arsenal player!

[Romo]

Stretches legs....

[AkydefGoldberg]

Tom's hit alot of things on the head with his post but this piece from Mark Ogden in the Telegraph summarises my feelings on United since 2009.

United have never really been in contention since 2009 - besides RVP - to buy a truly proven player. We missed out on Hazard although you could say Chelsea was his preferred option and maybe would have joined us had Chelsea not won the CL in 2012.

But, the recent struggles are unfortunately not helped by Moyes' appointment. In hindsight, with the work our squad needed, it was not the job for someone who had not won a trophy and not managed at the highest level. It was a job for experience but sadly Ancelotti wasn't available; Mourinho would have come had he been made a priority choice for the job (a book written by a Spanish journalist said he was in tears when learning Moyes had got the job).

It's sad for Fergie because he always said he'd want to leave a strong team when he left in comparison to the drinking culture of a squad he inherited but whilst not on that level, he's left a team with a major overhaul needed and that's down to him not investing sufficiently and also the Glazers keeping the chunk of the £80m Ronaldo fee for their backpockets and not strengthening when the last great team of SAF - in 2009 - was ending its cycle.

[PorkChop]

Van Gaal's persistence with a 3-5-2 formation is embarrassing.

EDIT: They just drew 0-0 with Burnley, who haven't kept a clean sheet in their last 29 Premier League games.

[dakotabear]

The 3-5-2 formation can work, the problem is putting 3 players at the back who don't know what they are doing. I think it will be better when we get Shaw and Rojo back on the field, Evans and Young are two players that I feel should not be allowed to wear the shirt, and need to be shown the door and quick. We do have a good team of players that cam make a difference, Kagawa and Januzaj for example and Di Maria will be fantastic when he settles in , and the obvious dead weight in Felliani, Anderson, Young, Evans, Smalling.

The only hope that I have is that Van Gaal does have credibility as he has had success in the past, Moyes had nothing and I believe set us back a year. We will rebuild and it will take time, we need to trust Van Gaal to tetanus back to a top 4 spot, as we cannot go through another transitional period with a new manager, it is unhealthy and bad for the team.

I do think that by this window and the one in January we can build a good squad, we can meet the wage demands and pay the large fees that clubs will demand.

[PorkChop]

The 3-5-2 formation can work, the problem is putting 3 players at the back who don't know what they are doing. I think it will be better when we get Shaw and Rojo back on the field, Evans and Young are two players that I feel should not be allowed to wear the shirt, and need to be shown the door and quick. We do have a good team of players that cam make a difference, Kagawa and Januzaj for example and Di Maria will be fantastic when he settles in , and the obvious dead weight in Felliani, Anderson, Young, Evans, Smalling.

The only hope that I have is that Van Gaal does have credibility as he has had success in the past, Moyes had nothing and I believe set us back a year. We will rebuild and it will take time, we need to trust Van Gaal to tetanus back to a top 4 spot, as we cannot go through another transitional period with a new manager, it is unhealthy and bad for the team.

I do think that by this window and the one in January we can build a good squad, we can meet the wage demands and pay the large fees that clubs will demand.

The 3-5-2 formation can't work with United's current squad and I'd expect a manager of Van Gaal's calibre to know this. United's defence are young and inexperienced, and Young and Valencia make terrible wing-backs. It's probably the worst legitimate formation Van Gaal can employ with the current squad.

Moyes had a lot of credibility. He may not have won anything whilst at Everton, but he managed to keep them competing with a ton of teams much better than them. It's a lie that he had "nothing to spend" though compared to the expenditure of teams like City, United, and Chelsea, Moyes did remarkably well to keep his team hanging with them. David Moyes is a very good manager, and no matter who was in charge of United post-Ferguson, they'd have suffered the same results and eventual fate. Look at Van Gaal now - no competitive wins in four, with two defeats including a 4-0 humiliation by MK Dons - all whilst fielding a strong squad.

This season, and probably even the next two or three, will be transitional for United. Big signings will arrive, but United won't sniff domestic success for a long time.

[AkydefGoldberg]

The 3-5-2 formation can work, the problem is putting 3 players at the back who don't know what they are doing. I think it will be better when we get Shaw and Rojo back on the field, Evans and Young are two players that I feel should not be allowed to wear the shirt, and need to be shown the door and quick. We do have a good team of players that cam make a difference, Kagawa and Januzaj for example and Di Maria will be fantastic when he settles in , and the obvious dead weight in Felliani, Anderson, Young, Evans, Smalling.

The only hope that I have is that Van Gaal does have credibility as he has had success in the past, Moyes had nothing and I believe set us back a year. We will rebuild and it will take time, we need to trust Van Gaal to tetanus back to a top 4 spot, as we cannot go through another transitional period with a new manager, it is unhealthy and bad for the team.

I do think that by this window and the one in January we can build a good squad, we can meet the wage demands and pay the large fees that clubs will demand.

The 3-5-2 formation can't work with United's current squad and I'd expect a manager of Van Gaal's calibre to know this. United's defence are young and inexperienced, and Young and Valencia make terrible wing-backs. It's probably the worst legitimate formation Van Gaal can employ with the current squad.

Moyes had a lot of credibility. He may not have won anything whilst at Everton, but he managed to keep them competing with a ton of teams much better than them. It's a lie that he had "nothing to spend" though compared to the expenditure of teams like City, United, and Chelsea, Moyes did remarkably well to keep his team hanging with them. David Moyes is a very good manager, and no matter who was in charge of United post-Ferguson, they'd have suffered the same results and eventual fate. Look at Van Gaal now - no competitive wins in four, with two defeats including a 4-0 humiliation by MK Dons - all whilst fielding a strong squad.

This season, and probably even the next two or three, will be transitional for United. Big signings will arrive, but United won't sniff domestic success for a long time.

I think had he had a solid back four, and wingers he'd have never gone with the 3-5-2. Only reason he did was due to the post WC feeling and he thought he could implement to the same success here but we don't have a solid defender like he had at the WC (Vlaar), a midfielder who can protect an inexperienced back three (De Jong) or a pacey winger (Robben). I'd be amazed if he stuck to it. Once defensive frailties improve then he'll go for a 4-3-3.

Moyes was the wrong man for the job. ATM, you could also say the same of LVG but Moyes experience was nothing to prepare him for the job of replacing a manager who'd built a dynasty over 26 years. Mourinho/Ancelotti might have been the only managers who could have come in and done a good job.

We're going to have to reduce expectations and try to progress like LVG suggested at yesterday's press conference. CL qualification this year, league next year and CL after but I only see us aiming for CL qualification this and next year.

[Viazon]

I'm not going to begin to assume that I know more about formations and tactic than Van Gaal but this 3 at the back thing doesn't look like it's working. Do they even have any full backs? I know they have Luke Shaw now who is injured but I for the life of me can't think of any others. They no longer have Evra.

[AkydefGoldberg]

I'm not going to begin to assume that I know more about formations and tactic than Van Gaal but this 3 at the back thing doesn't look like it's working. Do they even have any full backs? I know they have Luke Shaw now who is injured but I for the life of me can't think of any others. They no longer have Evra.

Rafael's injured atm. Blind, when he joins can play in the LWB position. Jones/Smalling are woeful in the RWB slots so yeah, loads of options! lol