The 3-0 home defeat to bitter rivals Liverpool at the weekend was their 9th of the season, compare that to only 3 losses at this point last season and it's clear to see something is wrong. Manchester United are the current Champions of England - they have pretty much the same squad as last season with the additions of the impressive youngster Adnan Januzaj, Juan Mata and Marouane Fellaini but the club has seen one major change this season, the appointment of David Moyes as successor to club legend Sir Alex Ferguson.
Sir Alex's retirement came as a major shock when he announced it on the 8th May 2013, less than two weeks before the end of the season. He was instrumental in the process of choosing his successor and had this to say when David Moyes was finally announced as new manager.
"David is a man of great integrity with a strong work ethic. I've admired his work for a long time and approached him as far back as 1998 to discuss the position of assistant manager here. There is no question he has all the qualities we expect of a manager at this club."
Moyes' appointment was warmly received by the majority, I think that's fair to say. He was initially perceived as the natural replacement for Ferguson being that he's pretty much the poor man version of the United legend but now we've arrived at the final stretch of the season is it also fair to say that Moyes' likeness to Sir Alex is the reason he's not doing well? David Moyes is untested at the higher echelons of English football - he built himself a good reputation during his tenure at Everton but if we were to look back at his time at Goodison now would we still feel the same way about him?
In truth David Moyes didn't really achieve anything at Everton. Sure he built a decent squad and managed to keep them in and around the top 6/7 for a good number of years but is that worthy of being deemed successful? If anything I'd argue the exact opposite. Correct me if I'm mistaken but in the 04/05 season Everton managed to pip Liverpool to 4th place and qualified for the Champions League for the first time in the club's history. Did the club build on this monumental feat and progress? No. It has to be said that despite numerous consecutive top-half finishes the club never actually expanded. David Moyes alone isn't responsible for this but he's certainly a contributing factor and his lack of ambition seems to have translated to Old Trafford and rubbed off on his players.
Is the manager really to blame for the change in fortunes at United though or is it something else? The Wayne Rooney issue served as somewhat of a baptism of fire for Moyes. The two famously had a falling out during the strikers time at Everton and the 'will he, won't he' saga as relates to Rooney's transfer status dominated most of Moyes' early going.
Sir Alex didn't exactly leave Moyes a steady ship to climb aboard but rather a proud old vessel on the verge of choppy waters and it's of my belief that Ferguson had spotted one or two chinks in the hull and got himself out before the ship capsized. Ferguson is a clever man - he had nothing but praise for Moyes and 'personally recommended him' for the job as we know but I believe he knew United were headed for trouble and threw Moyes under the bus. The way Sir Alex shamelessly plugged his autobiography by belittling pretty much anyone not in his 'inner circle' was embarrassing and it's this kind of 'McMahon-esque' ruthlessness that suggests he wouldn't have had an issue bailing on a lifeboat before the Titanic hit the iceberg if you catch my drift. (Not sure where the nautical metaphors are coming from
)Ferguson left Moyes with a huge rebuilding job. The likes of Scholes and Neville are long gone, the ever-aging Giggs and Ferdinand aren't what they used to be. Club captain Nemanja Vidic is leaving at the end of the season with vice-captain Evra set to follow suit. If I'm not mistaken the last central midfield player the club signed was either Anderson or Owen Hargreaves. Rooney is nothing more than a mercenary and Robin Van Persie only signed for United because of Sir Alex. The signs have always been there - Moyes never stood a chance of rebuilding this fading team in one Summer and the way the game is these days one Summer is all most get.
Perhaps I'm being a little dramatic but I really do think Sir Alex Ferguson left David Moyes with an impossible job - and he knew what he was doing.
That being said this isn't just about what I think and so I asked a number of different PubTalkForum members for their opinion on certain matters.
What is wrong with Manchester United?
PorkChop - The main problem is that Sir Alex left. It's as simple as that. He was the heart of Manchester United for decades and the reason behind their success. Love him or hate him, there's no denying that he was an exceptional manager. United were never going to be as successful without him as they were with him at the helm. I imagine that when Ferguson announced he was leaving, a lot of the team considered their futures. It must have been a huge dent in the morale of many players.
I also think part of the problem is United's aging squad. Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Carrick, Giggs, Van Persie, Fletcher... most of the guys at the core of United's squad are no spring chickens. Guys like Van Persie and Fletcher may only be 30 but have suffered some pretty bad injuries which has clocked up the mileage on them. The squad need to be reinvigorated with young talent - I believe this is why so many people have heaped praise on Januzaj, as he's exactly what United need right now.
Enygma - I think the problem at Man Utd is Moyes. He's not good enough for the job, simple. You can't blame weakness of the squad because he strengthened the squad by signing Juan Mata in January, and they already have Rooney and Van Persie etc. They really needed someone who has proven they can win big games and Moyes hadn't done that before Man Utd.
Daz - I'm not entirely sure what the problem is at Man Utd as I haven't watched them all that regularly this season – Been too busy trying not to weep with despair watching Norwich. On paper, I think it's evident their Midfield isn't nearly as strong or competitive as the (other) title contenders. Fellani was never gonna be the answer and was a bit of a silly buy in my opinion, and Juan Mata, whilst excellent, can’t do it all by himself. You have to ask why he wasn’t a regular in the Chelsea side and why there were willing to let him go. Then again, I don’t think it’s just a case of one component here and there, or Moyes being tactically inept etc. etc. think a lot to do with it, is simply Sir Alex no longer being there. The fear is gone for other teams and that little bit of magic and fire Ferguson instilled in his players in the dying moments of games.
Chewy - They're a team full of cunts supported by a pack of cunts and now managed by a cunt who doesn't get the favouritism of the FA like the last cunt that managed them.
Romo - Bad tactics, over rated manager...
1. Moyes insists on playing the tactics he used at Everton and United and he thinks that just because you have some good players that his tactics that sometimes work at Everton would work at United... yuo have Juan Mata, an excellent attacking midfielder.... but that is what he is, a player who needs to be played in behind the striker, given the role where he can find the gaps inbetween the attack and midfield... not playing on the wide right/left where he has to do the tracking back and defending side of the game, he isn't that type of player...
2. David Moyes is and always has been over rated, he was ridiclously inconsistent as Everton manager but the reason he got the United job wasn't because of his ability it was because he like SAF hasn't jumped around from club to club, United wanted a manager who had shown the same type of commitment SAF had shown and they had that in Moyes...
SKS - I think it has to be David Moyes, or just bad luck. To me this roster SHOULD be better than last year's that actually won the league title with the addition of Juan Mata, but they are far from title contenders. I'm quite shocked they have fallen so far.
AkyDefGoldberg - The problem began before Moyes. It began from 2009 when Sir Alex broke up his last great team with the sales of Ronaldo and Tevez. One had to be done, one needed to be done. The midfield needed work but he refused to buy due to "lack of value" in the market so the problem went unresolved. Moyes took over and ill-advisedly went for Fabregas when it was never going to happen. Panicked and bought Fellaini but Ed Woodward hardly covered himself in glory. They've spent £65m on Fellaini and Juan Mata and both players have struggled to show the form why we bought them in the first place. Now Moyes has failed to stamp any sort of improvement whether it be tactics or formations. He's had his best players available since January so can't put it down to injuries. Coupled with the players losing an icon of a manager and replacing him with a man reportedly "cut from the same cloth" which is all good and well but lacking with authority and presence and that has transmitted down to the players.
David Moyes - Give him time or time to go?
PorkChop - I should preface this by saying that I never thought United should have appointed Moyes, and I also think that his tenure at Everton was often perceived to be more impressive than it actually was - but that being said, give the man some time.
United were always bound to go through a transitional period after Ferguson's departure, and whoever was in charge after Ferguson would be criticised no matter what. In the Premier League today, too many chairmen have itchy trigger fingers when the club starts going through a bad patch. I'd give Moyes until the end of next season before judging him - I think his signings over the summer are crucial.
Enygma - I think Moyes will stay on and they'll give him enough money to change the squad to how he sees fit in the summer. That's probably all he needs, is to make the squad suitable enough for him.
Daz - It’s not been a good season for United for sure. But he was probably left with the weakest United side I remember them having. True, that same side won the title the previous campaign, but new manager, new backroom staff … you have to give them time to bed in. I’d say preserve, even if it means the trophy cabinet goes bare the next few seasons. Look at Liverpool. They went through a very rough period post Benitez but they’ve brought in Rodgers and he’s been able to ship out the deadweight, really form the team he wants and look what they’re doing now. Moyes isn’t a bad manager and he hasn’t turned into a bad manager overnight. Perhaps the pressure of being “the Chosen One” has gotten to him or perhaps Sir Alex’s team is having trouble adjusting to his influence … who knows what happens behind the scenes? Stick with him, let him try and make this his team. After a Summer Transfer window, we could see a very different Man Utd.
Chewy - Give him time, lots of time. At least enough to get them relegated or financially ruined.
Romo - Give him till Christmas and if things haven't changed sack him, break the bank for Klopp who is a proven god in management already, he'll be wanting out soon as Dortmund are a falling ship right now as their stars are leaving... Moyes needs to sign big players and is going to spend big (if he stays) in the summer but I can guarantee he will buy the wrong players..
SKS - I don't think he has the capabilities of managing United, one of the biggest clubs in the world. Sir Alex is excellent at what he does and I think once he left, the reign of terror brought on by United is certainly over, and will be for the near future. Moyes is in way over his head in my opinion, and there's a good chance his former club in Everton finish above him this season, which would be titanically embarrassing.
Aky - If we get knocked out of the Champions League, lose/draw to West Ham and lose heavily against City - I can't see how he would survive. Fergie might want him to carry on and Sir Bobby but the momentum swing would be too much. In modern football, he'd have sacked ten times over anywhere else.
Pretty damning stuff from the majority of us (bare in mind Aky is the only United fan of the group, the rest of us all take enormous pleasure in seeing United falter and so feel free to take our opinions with a grain of salt)
In contrast Liverpool this season have been superb. Brendan Rodgers' sit 2nd in the League table and have gotten there in impressive fashion. They play free-flowing, attacking football and have managed to completely change their fortunes. With less than 10 weeks to go until the end of the season they're firmly in the title race, a feat few would have predicted at the start of the season. Liverpool are a club that dominated the 70's and 80's - they're arguably the first team your parents will mention when you ask them who the big clubs were when they were growing up. Is it possible the history could be repeating itself and the Merseysiders are on the periphery of returning to the heights of old?
The Anfield side has never won the Premier League and in truth (bar one season under Benitez) haven't really come close. Liverpool could be the example to Man Utd fans in the way they stuck by Brendan Rodgers and showed him a little bit of faith and finally look to be reaping the rewards. In this highly transitional season I also asked if Liverpool truly are title contenders heading into the final stretch...
Are Liverpool genuine title contenders?
PorkChop - Contenders, yes. I'm not sure whether they'll win it though. They still have Man City and Chelsea to play in April which will define their season. It could end up going 'down to the wire' as they say, which would certainly make things interesting!
Enygma - I think anyone in the top 4 is a title contender, the league is too close to call at the moment, Liverpool do stand a chance though.
Daz - At this point I’d say so. Earlier in the season, it looked like Arsenal were the front runners, but there problem has been their inability to beat the top teams. Liverpool have done that, and been scoring goals by the bucket load. They’ve looked a different class going forward. Suarez can practically walk on water as far as his performances are concerned this season, combined with Henderson proving he’s not just a shit Steven Gerrard and Daniel Sturridge playing well. They’ve had one or two silly loses … Hull springs to mind … but if they can keep up the form they’re in right now, and there’s not that many games left, you definitely can’t count them out.
Chewy - Mathematically, absolutely, but I doubt they win it this year. If they get some good backing in the summer then maybe we can give them a chance next year.
Romo - Yes, BR is the manager of the season no doubt, he is also a case for why United shouldn't fire Moyes yet, BR didn't fare so well last season, and Liverpool keeping him has come back and done wonders for them, he has a squad firing incredibly and has created a new Stevie G who is reborn and slaying it.
SKS - I mean, sure. They've proven they have a great offense and are more than capable of scoring goals, but can they win the big ones, can they finish the season is the real question. In recent memory United, City, also Chelsea, have all finished the season strong and finish the job. We'll just have to wait and see if Liverpool can do the same.
Aky - Sadly, they are. Play one game a week and this is their best chance to win it. Simple as. 2009's failure was down to Rafa's negativity against lesser sides but they are beasting teams at home and playing with confidence. They need to remember that the teams in and around them will spend big and they might not get this chance again.
Opinion's seem to be universal. Liverpool were patient and gave the manager time to do his job and as of right now seem to delighted with the progress and (barring a nightmare last few weeks) they look set to finally return to the hallowed grounds of the Champions League - something I personally can't wait for. Anfield on a Champions League night is rivaled by none. Liverpool are a Champions League club, plain and simple - I can't wait to hear that music next season.
As mentioned earlier, this season has been hugely transitional. We've seen major changes in personnel at Chelsea, Manchester's City and United, the resurgence of Liverpool, the slump of Tottenham Hotspur following the departure of Gareth Bale...Arsenal are also there too as always although there's nothing much to discuss with Arsenal, they're always in and around the title scene although never seem to show any signs of improving or faltering
They do however find themselves with the best chance of winning a trophy in 9 years... The relegation dogfight is more open than ever and the title race is the closest it's ever been. So my final question;As of right now, how do you see the top 6 looking at the end of the season?
PorkChop - I think the top four teams (Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City) are locks, the only variable is what order they'll finish in. As of this moment, Spurs are in fifth place but seven points off City in fourth place, who have three games in hand - so the real question is which teams complete the top six. I wouldn't rule out Man United to make a challenge for the top six place with a bit of luck.
Enygma - 1. Chelsea
2. Man City
3. Arsenal/Liverpool
4. Arsenal/Liverpool
5. Everton
6. Spurs
Daz - Pretty much the same as it stands now. Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Tottenham and Everton. I don’t see Man Utd. Catching them and finding a way into the top four. The way I see it, the title is gonna be decided by Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea’s games against Norwich in the final four games … could be a case of who scores more. God I hate football.
Chewy - Citeh
Chelski
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Southampton.
Romo - 1. City
2. Liverpool
3. Chelsea
4. Arsenal
5. Everton
6. Spurs
SKS - 1st Manchester City: if everything goes according to plan, they would be ahead of Chelsea and in first place. Aguero's injury woes scare me but this is about the time they should pick up the pace and get in good form. Only the title chase to worry about now.
2nd Chelsea: Strong side, but to me, they won't be crowned champions. Meltdowns like this past weekend against Aston Villa isn't championship material this late in the season. I can see them struggling a bit, but I still see them finishing 2nd.
3rd Liverpool: Don't see them beating City & Chelsea, although it is possible. I just don't trust Liverpool as of now.
4th Arsenal: I wish these cunts would drop out of the top 4, but they won't, because Spurs are piss poor and Everton isn't that great. I really don't think Arsenal are that good.
5th Everton: Basically who's the best out of Everton/Spurs/United. 5th place by default.
6th Spurs: It'd be a disaster if this team fell out of the top 6, and I'd say they would if United weren't shit. I'm confident Southampton will finish above United as well.
Aky - Man City
Chelsea
Liverpool
Arsenal
Everton
Manchester United
Which brings us to the end of the long and probably quite arduous read. If this is well received the plan is to continue with these types of threads with a number of different topics such as an end of season review, your England squad for the World Cup, the tournament itself etc... My thanks to everyone that contributed - it'll certainly be interesting to see whether United can get past Olympiakos in the CL and I'm very much looking forward to this weekends games!
