50+ dead, 50+ more injured in shooting at Orlando gay club

[Circled Square]

Was gun control a problem in France and Belgium?

Suicide vests were a problem in France and Belgium. They also didn't have a 101 mass shootings prior to those events. They were the exception, not the rule.

And by population, the mass shooters in the states are the exception and not the rule..

[PorkChop]

Was gun control a problem in France and Belgium?

Suicide vests were a problem in France and Belgium. They also didn't have a 101 mass shootings prior to those events. They were the exception, not the rule.

And by population, the mass shooters in the states are the exception and not the rule..

I think you're missing the point.

Don't bother, Daz. You know this discussion always turns sour, and you won't refute any arguments which haven't already been refuted in previous threads. America may not have learned anything from the last mass shooting, but I've learned that I don't want you pulling a Locke on us.

[Circled Square]

Hopefully one day I can rise to your intellectual level and understand how my arguments are so much inferior to yours. Until then I'll continue wandering aimlessly in the dark.

[Circled Square]

Seriously though the discussion was going fine plus there's like two people who would disagree with Daz on this forum kek

[Daz]

I think the discussion is going fine. I think both sides have made valids points.

[Daz]

Was gun control a problem in France and Belgium?

Suicide vests were a problem in France and Belgium. They also didn't have a 101 mass shootings prior to those events. They were the exception, not the rule.

And by population, the mass shooters in the states are the exception and not the rule..

I remember reading a report about mass shootings maybe last year, where there were over 140 mass shootings in which four or more people were killed in America, since 2006. In Germany, I think there's been something like 7. Germany has a population of 80 million. The U.S has a population of close to 320 million. That's four times as large. Even if you inflate Germany's 80 million to match the U.S, multiply the mass shootings to reflect that, and even times that number four more times to account for the enlarged population, that still doesn't touch America's 140 mass shootings.

Granted that's all theoretical but even so, the most ardent defender of the second amendment and guns has to admit, 140 mass shootings is a pretty damming figure. And that's not even taking into account the shootings with fewer than four fatalities.

[Circled Square]

Germany is, or was, a homogenous society, and it has very strict gun laws. Switzerland has very high gun ownership, in the 90s percentage wise and has one of the lowest gun violence stats in the world. There's less poor people in Germany and Switzerland and they both have lower populations so you can see why people aren't killing each other as much over there.

[Circled Square]

Uh-oh Hanley bout to drop a classic

[Daz]

Germany is, or was, a homogenous society, and it has very strict gun laws. Switzerland has very high gun ownership, in the 90s percentage wise and has one of the lowest gun violence stats in the world. There's less poor people in Germany and Switzerland and they both have lower populations so you can see why people aren't killing each other as much over there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Switzerland has high gun ownership because of it's conscription laws, which isn't exactly the same thing as selling a gun in a supermarket.

Poorer people being more prone to gun violence is an interesting point. It'd actually be an interesting study to see the respective wealth of suspects who have committed mass shootings.

[Everlong]

Reports are coming out that the guy did this because he saw two men kissing this week and it angered him.

Also, police apprehended a guy on his way to the LA pride parade with a shit ton of guns and explosives.

I'll never understand how people are capable of such hate.

[Circled Square]

Reports are coming out that the guy did this because he saw two men kissing this week and it angered him.

Also, police apprehended a guy on his way to the LA pride parade with a shit ton of guns and explosives.

I'll never understand how people are capable of such hate.

Could be because they think they are right with their God.

[Hanley!]

Let the bodies get cold before you start taking away people's guns.

I know I always start this discussion by making this particular point, but I'm going to make it again anyway. Everyone needs to retire this fucking ridiculous sentiment.

I understand that people just died. That's why talking about this subject is so important right now. More people could die if something isn't done about it. By failing to address the issues that got these people killed, you're not honouring their memories, you're doing the exact opposite. There's nothing inherently callous or insensitive about talking about how we should fix these problems immediately after they result in enormous casualties. Now is exactly the time to talk about it. When people are paying attention to the issue. When people are passionate about the issue.

To try and deflect people from talking about gun control after a mass shooting is at best stupid and at worst manipulative as fuck. Trying to guilt people out of the argument before they might make someone see sense. Discussion is always a good thing. That's how mankind improves in all areas: by being open and talking things through with each other.

And actually, I'm pretty sure that you'd more or less agree based on how the rest of this thread has played out so far. I'd say people need to train themselves out of that way of thinking.

This is a huge tragedy, and a massive blow to the LGBT community in America, and around the world. People already struggle with coming out and living their lifestyles openly without fearing persecution and abuse, but now many will find themselves thinking about what happened in Orlando. I don't know how I'd deal with something like that in their situation.

If we're trying to assign blame here, I reckon the main points people will be talking about are the following:

1) Gun control
2) Mental health
3) Bigotry
4) Religious extremism

No matter what anyone says, gun control is a problem in America. Because the other three problems exist in all Western countries across the world, yet none of those countries have nearly the amount of mass shootings that America does. The reason America has more gun violence is that it has more guns. It's an easy correlation to make. Now as for this specific case, we can't know right now if guns being illegal in the country would have stopped him from doing this anyway. But on a macro level, it would stop most of the mass shootings and most of the gun violence generally. After a while, people are going to have to wake up to the fact that your guns aren't making you safer.

The mental health discussion is important. What bothers me is that it seems to be trotted out time and time again as a diversion by conservatives to deflect away from gun control, and once they're finished deflecting they don't actually try and address mental health issues. Because much of the time they don't really care about them. It's just a distraction. But I would argue that mental health is badly underfunded in much of the Western world. Just a month ago, the government tried to slash our already unimpressive mental health budget to use the money for other things. And this is in a country with some of the highest suicide rates in Europe, particularly among young males. Enough people protested that the government did agree to raise the budget again shortly afterwards, but it is worrying just how little attention this is being given in much of the world.

Bigotry is one of those things that will just take time, but we can hurry things along through open discussion and debate and calling people out on their bullshit and trying to make them understand an alternate point of view. Eventually these outdated prejudiced ways of thinking will start to fade away. The question is how long will it take, and whether they'll ever disappear completely.

As for the religious aspect, I don't even know how you deal with that shit. It's probably much the same as bigotry in that the beliefs that don't fit in the modern world will gradually erode away. But it's harder with matters of religion, people aren't as willing to bend when they think it might upset a higher power. I do think it's important that everyone have a right to worship their own religion without being persecuted for it, but then I also think a person's right to not get shot is more important. My biggest problem with religion is that if a psycho interprets their religions teachings a certain way, they can use these teachings as an excuse to commit horrific atrocities without feeling guilty or accepting any responsibility for their actions.

Sorry if I'm rambling. To be honest, I get a little bit more tired and a little bit more depressed every time I have this conversation. Sometimes it's hard to know if it's possible to stop things like this from happening in the short term. But we should at least try. And for America specifically, the best way to try and tackle this issue right now is take a real look at gun control.

[Circled Square]

The kind of radicalism I'm on about is Salafi-Jihadism, which has become disturbingly prevalent in the West amongst disaffected young Muslims and in isolated cases is being pushed in mosques which received funding from the Saudis to preach Wahabism. Religion is a big part of this specific incident. Whenever a member of a minority community comitts an atrocity the liberals always stretch the story as wide as they can and cover all gun crimes. That's deflecting too fam. The truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle. Mental health is severely underfunded and incredibly biased in where it's applied at the right level, arguably because of racism.

[Westcoastvibes]

I love how people not from america just assume that guns are handed out on street corners like fucking birthday balloons. Gun laws are rather strict and background checks are thorough. The issue is not the laws, ability to obtain or even possession of guns its the attention that is gained when these issues happen.

No matter what country you are residing in, your local radicalist can and most likely has obtained a firearm with ease regardless of laws and regulations. For example, I can drive less than 50 miles from my house and enter Mexico, in under 30 mins I could purchase a fully automatic assault rifle with ammunition and start killing everyone I see for no real reason. This would likely only make local news because it did not happen on American soil and I am not ISIS. Point is, guns and ammunition are outlawed completely in mexico unless you are military or law enforcement yet there is more availability to obtain a gun in mexico than there is in the US.

Tighter laws and checks are not the answer, a criminal will obtain no matter what the law says and this sort of tragedies will continue to happen as long as it continues to have a national impact with worldwide media attention.

[PorkChop]

I love how people not from america just assume that guns are handed out on street corners like fucking birthday balloons.

When did anyone say this?

All that's been said is that gun crime in America is horrendous and needs to be addressed. Which is true.

[Hanley!]

Do you honestly think that a mass shooting of this scale (or basically any scale large enough to be considered a MASS shooting) wouldn't receive major news coverage in other Western countries? Because that's frankly absurd. In Ireland if one person gets shot, it's front page news. And when there are mass shootings in Europe, they become worldwide stories too. It just doesn't happen as often.

[EmperorWu]

Point is, guns and ammunition are outlawed completely in mexico unless you are military or law enforcement yet there is more availability to obtain a gun in mexico than there is in the US.

Where do think most of those guns come from in the first place?

[The Legend]

Here's the thing. I'm not opposed to gun control on any personal or moral ground. I don't like guns. I've never fired or even held one and I never will, because I have absolutely no desire.

All that being said, I still look at people saying that the issue is purely or almost entirely about gun control, kinda like somebody going to a person with a tumor in their brain and saying, 'just take some tylenol for your headaches. It entirely misses the point. The problem is there's so many people in this world that have become so isolated, so disillusioned that all they have is hate in their hearts. Take all the guns out of America and leave the people so filled with hatred and instead of shootings, we'd be hearing about people strapping bombs to their chests like they do in countries that have all of this phenomenal gun control.

[Westcoastvibes]

I love how people not from america just assume that guns are handed out on street corners like fucking birthday balloons.

When did anyone say this?

All that's been said is that gun crime in America is horrendous and needs to be addressed. Which is true.

Your right, it does need to be addressed, but tightening the ability to obtain legal does nothing for this. The reference to handing guns out was a general statement not a quote. The way anti gun lobbiest and most who oppose guns look at the situation is like you just walk in, ask for a gun and it's handed over to you. Guns are rather hard to obtain legally as it is, making it harder does not make sense when most of these attacks are not done with legally purchased weapons.

Point is, guns and ammunition are outlawed completely in mexico unless you are military or law enforcement yet there is more availability to obtain a gun in mexico than there is in the US.

Where do think most of those guns come from in the first place?

Most of them come from steel or plastics manufacturered in places like China then assembled in the US. Should we blame the Chinese steel industry now?

[PorkChop]

Take all the guns out of America and leave the people so filled with hatred and instead of shootings, we'd be hearing about people strapping bombs to their chests like they do in countries that have all of this phenomenal gun control.

What countries are these?

People strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up is almost nonexistent in developed western countries which have strict gun ownership laws. Meanwhile, America is averaging more than one mass shooting per day.