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Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

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Which match was better?

Poll ended at Jun 16, '15, 1:08 pm

John Cena vs. CM Punk, Money in the Bank 2011
17
81%
Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness, ROH Unified
4
19%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby PorkChop » Jun 11, '15, 1:12 pm

Danielson vs McGuiness is quite clearly the superior wrestling match.

The CM Punk vs John Cena feud around MITB was awesome, but this isn't about feuds, promos and hype, this is about wrestling matches. Danielson vs McGuiness is the better match.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Daz » Jun 11, '15, 1:43 pm

I've gotta go with McGuinness vs. Danielson. It's a better wrestling match on a technical level, and I much prefer the story surrounding the match itself. The only thing I dislike about the match, is Nigel headbutting the post. It's pretty gruesome to watch and given his later concussion problems, seems unnecessary.

Cena vs. Punk is a very good match, one of the best in WWE in the past decade. But the "if Cena loses, he's fired" stip took a lot of the shine off the potential result, and I hate the Vince involvement during the conclusion, despite it making logical sense. The thing this match has going for it more than anything is the crowd and the atmosphere.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Messiah » Jun 11, '15, 2:11 pm

The stipulation that if John Cena lost the match, he would be fired had absolutely nothing to do with how people viewed the match. Everyone knew that wasn't going to happen, especially considering it had only been less than a year since Cena was "fired" during his run with the Nexus.

The reason the match was so special was because of the uncertainty surrounding it. People calling it a merely good or decent build-up are legitimately underrating it. It was the most exciting couple of weeks of television in years. It got everyone talking. From the moment Punk announced he was leaving to the Punk/McMahon contract negotiation (one of the greatest Raw segments ever), the build-up was fucking fantastic. Yes, the build-up to a match shouldn't have any bearing in the match we choose. However, the build-up contributes to the atmosphere and meaning of a match and that absolutely should be factored in. That would be like not considering a wrestler's charisma/mic skills when determining the best wrestler ever. How a crowd reacts to a match can have a BIG impact on its quality and how it comes across on television.

The difference with Punk vs Cena is that they got the crowd hyped up based on lies. The stipulations were that if Punk won, he would leave the company with the title and Cena would be fired. Neither of these things happened. I know fans weren't really hoping for Punk to leave necessarily - they just wanted him to leave in storyline and for them to do something new and groundbreaking with his character. But we didn't get any of that. He was back a week later and it was almost like none of it had ever happened.


Which is why like I said, if you're someone who didn't watch the match live, you probably don't care for as much as people who did see it live do. It doesn't have the replay-ability that other matches may have, which further in the tournament will likely hurt it. However, the match shouldn't lose any points because of how right or wrong the WWE got the crowd hyped up. At the end of the day, they did and it led to a match that had everyone on the edge of their seats from start to finish. If we're going to argue that build-up to a match shouldn't be factored in (something I agree with), then the aftermath shouldn't either.

But I think people mostly only consider it one of the greatest matches ever because of the hype around it and the promise of change coming out of it, and that all turned out to be bullshit.


I consider it one of the greatest matches ever because it is probably the most I have ever been into a match. Even if you want to eliminate the stipulations, CM Punk winning the WWE Championship and being cemented as a main eventer is still one of the greatest moments ever and the stipulation had nothing to do with that. Back in 2011, seeing John Cena lose clean right in the middle of the ring was rare as fuck. Punk won clean, or as clean as it was going to get, over the face of the company after a 30 or so minute match, something that was also rare to see. It probably has my favorite crowd ever (not overly smarky but were loud and gave the reaction that was best suited to what was going on in the ring rather than trying to put themselves over). What happened in the weeks following the match were shit, but it doesn't and shouldn't cloud anyone's memory who saw it when it all went down.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Everlong » Jun 11, '15, 2:15 pm

Messiah wrote: If we're going to argue that build-up to a match shouldn't be factored in (something I agree with), then the aftermath shouldn't either.


That's a great point. Although to me, I don't really care much about the aftermath, but do care quite a bit about the build.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Hanley! » Jun 11, '15, 2:41 pm

Everlong wrote:
Messiah wrote: If we're going to argue that build-up to a match shouldn't be factored in (something I agree with), then the aftermath shouldn't either.


That's a great point. Although to me, I don't really care much about the aftermath, but do care quite a bit about the build.


I think it's possible to overvalue both in deciding how good a match itself was, but I think it's impossible to divorce a match entirely from its build and its aftermath. And I don't even think people should. Wrestling is about storytelling. What a match contributes to a story is really important in judging how good it is.

The build to Punk/Cena was amazing, and that's a big part of why it the match came off so well. The crowd was white hot for it, because the build had been so fascinating. Punk became a phenomenon during that period. That colours my perception of the match. But so does the fact that it all went nowhere. When I first watched the match when Punk jumped the guardrail I was thinking "oh my god this is huge". Obviously when I watch it now, I can't get that feeling.

I can go back and watch some big moments and big surprises in wrestling on the Network or on Youtube, and relive the excitement. Money in the Bank cash ins, big debuts, surprise returns and things like that. But I can't quite do that with this match. I can get into the energy of the match, and the story, but the ending doesn't give me chills the way some of those other moments still do, because I know now we were being trolled.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby SlightlyJames » Jun 11, '15, 3:16 pm

I get where you're coming from Steve but from my perspective, the build is much more important. The build is what influences how I felt watching that match for the first time live. The build is what made that match such a wonderful event of wrestling where many of us felt more exhilarated than we had watching wrestling in years. No amount of replacement championships or Alberto or HHH and Nash can take away how I felt watching that match live.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Hanley! » Jun 11, '15, 3:51 pm

Yeah, I don't disagree. Watching the match live, it was absolutely awesome. I was 100% into the entire thing, and marked out big time for the finish. But we're not watching these matches live now, we're looking back on them. And how the matches have held up is going to play a role in how I vote here.

Now I haven't watched the Danielson/McGuinness match yet. I'm going to do that tomorrow night and then I'll cast my vote. I want to actually watch all the matches in this tournament before watching (if only to refresh my memory). It's likely I may vote for Cena/Punk anyway, as I still enjoyed the match. But it's likely I won't be voting for it in future rounds, and the aftermath will be a contributing factor there.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby KaiserGlider » Jun 11, '15, 5:57 pm

I feel like the whole "everything after Cena/Punk was shit so that devalues it" argument is being overblown here. While it's obvious that the 3-week buildup to the match was incredible, I felt that the following two weeks before Punk came back still had a high level of excitement/intrigue from the match's fallout. Punk taking a photo of the WWE title belt in his fridge, showing up at Comic-Con to interrupt Triple H, not giving any clues what he was going to do next. Those were memorable moments to me in the Summer of Punk (as it is now known). The tone of some of these posts implies that Punk basically came back the Raw after the PPV. I guess my point is that while I do feel Punk's return definitely should have been held off, I don't think that his momentum died down quickly enough to really hurt the re-watchability of this match at all. Punk was still white hot until after Summerslam, when it became clear that the Kevin Nash thing was going nowhere and Miz and Truth were getting a bigger push than Punk was.

I didn't vote in this thread at first because I couldn't watch the ROH match, but now that it's here I don't think I'll bother. I'll probably like it a lot, maybe even more than Punk/Cena but it's obviously not going to win the round at this point. While I don't think Cena/Punk was an incredible wrestling match, the crowd and atmosphere really puts it up there for me. There hasn't been a crowd like that since then, and possibly won't be ever again. Looking forward to seeing which match this gets paired up with in the second round.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Hanley! » Jun 11, '15, 6:05 pm

While Punk didn't come back the next night, he did come back just 8 nights later. And the very next night after the pay per view, Cena wasn't fired (which we knew wasn't going to happen in fairness) and more damningly they announced a championship tournament imeediately, which completely undersold the whole notion of Punk leaving with the title being devastating for the company. So yeah, it did kinda go to hell the very next night.

The Comic Con thing was great, more of that would have been good. They just didn't bother coming up with any other ideas.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Str8Shooter » Jun 11, '15, 7:12 pm

I remember Punk's Raw return, despite it being "too soon", being amazing. Right after Cena beat Rey for the new World title. Then some strange music hits, everyone wonders what the hell is going on, and then Punk walks out, I believe with a new shirt, and his belt, to "Cult of Personality" for the first time.

My memory when it comes to more recent WWE moments is not as good as it is for older stuff, but I remember how cool that moment was clear as day. Which means it must have been something special.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby VaderBomb » Jun 11, '15, 9:04 pm

I had a giant post written out but my internet decided to randomly refresh and the whole thing is gone. :(

Bryan and Nigel put on a perfect match at Unified. The shots to the skull that Nigel takes are some of the most brutal spots that I've ever seen in wrestling. It was also one of the most important matches for ROH as it was their first Euro tour and it was a title unification match.

Punk/Cena was a great match that was made even better with a great story and ending which in turn made the crowd loud and pumped. It's the best match that Cena's ever had, but it doesn't even come close to the best match of Punk's career. Compare it to Joe vs Punk II and you'll understand what I mean.

If you haven't seen Bryan/Nigel, then I don't think that you deserve to vote in this thread. It's clearly the better match.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby SlightlyJames » Jun 11, '15, 9:11 pm

VaderBomb wrote:If you haven't seen Bryan/Nigel, then I don't think that you deserve to vote in this thread.

I don't know about 'deserve' but for the most part this goes for the entire tournament, really. People would be better served in voting having seen both entries.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby KaiserGlider » Jun 11, '15, 9:54 pm

VaderBomb wrote:Punk/Cena was a great match that was made even better with a great story and ending which in turn made the crowd loud and pumped. It's the best match that Cena's ever had


I'd put it up against the Cena/Edge TLC match from Unforgiven 2006, which wasn't included in this tournament for questionable reasons, so we didn't get a chance to do that debate :P
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Locke » Jun 11, '15, 10:01 pm

I've skimmed over a lot of this and while I don't have much to say about the responses, I do have this to say about CM Punk VS John Cena:

I've been jaded to wrestling for over a decade. When WCW died, my love and trust of professional wrestling died with it. I realize WCW was in a shit state when it kicked the bucket, but when it was good, it was better than anything I had ever or will ever see in professional wrestling. It was the show that inspired me to save up my allowance and buy a VCR so I could record every Nitro from 96/97ish onward. That VCR was the first real investment I had ever made and it was for WCW.

Back then, even when it was shit, it was still good to me. It was better than anything else on TV. Still is, probably, because TV has only gotten worse. Even Russo, to me, was an interesting character back then. Fuck, I was like 13 or 14, maybe younger, so I wasn't some smart keyboard warrior ready to trash the product at any shot I got. Even still, I think WWE has been worse between 2006 and 2012 and sometimes even now than WCW ever was. Plus, all companies have bad slumps, but WCW was so small compared to WWF at the time, they were always dancing on a thread. But enough about that.

Wrestling had been dead to me for years, but that CM Punk VS Cena match made me feel 12 again. I knew all about back stage shenanigans, scripting, the money, everything, but for that one match it was all gone. Everything was real. The moves looked real, the intensity was real, that fucking match was real. And then Punk left with the title. Ran away.. Heel gone face against face of the company, VETERAN face of the company, heel gone super baby face Hulkamaniac style won, done, gone. It was still real to me, dammit.

That was.. the shit.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby PorkChop » Jun 12, '15, 12:01 pm

The fact that some people are voting without watching both matches is shit. How is that even fair?
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Str8Shooter » Jun 12, '15, 12:06 pm

PorkChop wrote:The fact that some people are voting without watching both matches is shit. How is that even fair?


Some people probably don't want to watch a 45 minute indy match on youtube with at least one person they're not at all familiar with. It's why I think it probably should have been Greatest WWE match, maybe it would have been limiting but the metrics to measure the matches against each other may have been more even.

I'm planning on watching the ROH match first though even though I doubt it'll win for me.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Messiah » Jun 12, '15, 12:41 pm

PorkChop wrote:The fact that some people are voting without watching both matches is shit. How is that even fair?


For whatever it's worth, I still haven't voted.

Not that it will make much of a difference in the poll right now. But I agree, both matches should be watched before a vote is sent in.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Viazon » Jun 12, '15, 1:34 pm

You guys are right. I shouldn't vote if I haven't seen both matches. So I official discard my vote for John Cena vs CM Punk.


Now it's only 12-4 to John Cena vs Cm Punk.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Kirbi » Jun 12, '15, 4:21 pm

We watched Punk/Cena, immediately followed by Danielson/McGuinness.

P/C wasn't as good as I was maybe expecting - I've never seen/experienced the Summer of Punk, so I didn't have a nostalgia buzz going for that. The crowd was really hot for it though, which was a great (at least... it was once I got used to it and it stopped being a little distracting). The commentary was very thoroughly awful, and made no sense whatsoever. The wrestling itself was good, and very effective, but fell short of greatness. All in all, this match was enjoyable, but I preferred both matches in the other thread. However...

D/G was a wretched, crushing disappointment. Maybe my expectations were a little high, but if this is the very best that ROH has to offer - the only match to make it through - I won't be looking for any more. The storytelling here was utter rubbish, the production exacerbated every minor flaw in a match by two talented performers, and you can clearly see them 'helping' each other frequently i.e. McGuinness does not even slightly look like he's resisting being brained into a pole; he looks like he's remaining braced for it. Sheer stupidity.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Hanley! » Jun 12, '15, 4:34 pm

Okay, so I watched Danielson vs McGuinness. And then I voted for Punk vs Cena.

I kinda hated Danielson/McGuinness. Actually, I was getting downright pissed off by the end of the match. This was some spectacular indyrific bullshit.

The audio was awful, to the point where it was difficult to make out the rules at the beginning of the match. And the camera was pretty bad too. It was zoomed in at the wrong times and zoomed out at the wrong times. Often the guys were either being exposed, or you couldn't see what was happening properly. There were submissions where we couldn't see exactly where the pressure was being applied and there were punches that we could see weren't landing.

Though while that stuff detracted from the match it wasn't what really pissed me off.

It started out pretty decent. I was honestly more impressed by McGuinness than Danielson. His "pure wrestling" looked a lot more polished than Brian's. They had nice chemistry together in the early going and some of the transitions looked pretty damn cool. Danielson played up the heel role nicely too. I'm not sure if he was actually heel at this point, or if he was just playing heel due to the biased British crowd, but either way he did a good job.

A lot of the spots looked super contrived though. Like one of them would just stand there waiting to take a move from the other. Brian dashed into the corner simply to take a move from McGuinness. They stopped for a cup of tea and a chat when they were both standing on the top freaking rope. Also, some of Danielson's moves lacked the proper intensity. He gave some of the worst stomps I've seen and at one point barely rested his foot on Nigel's face, without pretending to exert any pressure.

What really pissed me off though was the ring post spot and what came after it. It looked absolutely terrible, and yet it was really dangerous. McGuinness cut himself hard way by basically headbutting the post himself. He leaned into each shot making it look stupid and phony. Why? This is wrestling at its ugliest. Absolutely stupid shit that's not worth it in the long run. Then they made it worse by getting into a phony, ugly looking headbutt battle that probably hurt like hell too. And just to further kill the psychology of the match, the bloody McGuinness is the one who started it. Towards the end of the match Brian seemed to really be stiffing McGuinness too (which led to an underwhelming KO finish out of nowhere).

It's absolutely no mystery why both of their careers are probably over now. This was really stupid, pointless stuff. Dutch Mantel once famously said that there was a time in wrestling when people pretended to hurt each other and everyone thought it was real, and now people really hurt each other and everyone knows it's fake. This match is the epitome of that, if you ask me.

If this is the best of Bryan's ROH stuff, then I'll be happy not to go looking for any more of it.
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