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Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

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Which match was better?

Poll ended at Jun 16, '15, 1:08 pm

John Cena vs. CM Punk, Money in the Bank 2011
17
81%
Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness, ROH Unified
4
19%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Str8Shooter » Jun 12, '15, 4:40 pm

@Hanley! & @Kirbi just straight murdered that McGuinness/Danielson match, I mean a thorough 1st degree vicious homicide. :lol I don't even want to watch it now. I think that terrible Jackie Gayda/Trish match from Raw got some kinder reviews.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Everlong » Jun 12, '15, 4:41 pm

Str8Shooter wrote:@Hanley! & @Kirbi just straight murdered that McGuinness/Danielson match, I mean a thorough 1st degree vicious homicide. :lol I don't even want to watch it now. I think that terrible Jackie Gayda/Trish match from Raw got some kinder reviews.


Watch this one

best match imo

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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby SlightlyJames » Jun 12, '15, 4:41 pm

I watched it, I enjoyed the beginning of the match but it lost me and sort of fell apart as it went on. It's not better than Punk/Cena.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby SortaCreative » Jun 12, '15, 4:42 pm

I love you two :lol

PREACH.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Str8Shooter » Jun 12, '15, 4:44 pm

@Vaderbomb had to go lay down and start doing breathing exercises after he read those posts.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby SortaCreative » Jun 12, '15, 4:45 pm

Str8Shooter wrote:@VaderBomb had to go lay down and start doing breathing exercises after he read those posts.


AW SHUCKY DUCKY

VADERBOMB THEY COMIN FOR YOU JIGGA
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Str8Shooter » Jun 12, '15, 4:46 pm

In all seriousness, I am eagerly awaiting @Vaderbomb and his rebuttal.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Tom » Jun 12, '15, 5:11 pm

From what I have seen of ROH, I have actually been impressed with more of the tag team matches than the singles matches that get mentioned as being some of the "best ever". The Briscoes have become one of my favourite teams to watch by going back and watching some of their matches. I actually think that Hanley and Kirbi may even enjoy some of their matches (possibly with the exception of the camera work :P). They are a lot of fun. If you haven't seen any of the Briscoes tag matches before I definitely recommend watching some of them. And that's coming from someone who isn't a huge ROH mark either!
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby EmperorWu » Jun 12, '15, 5:19 pm

As much as I liked Danielson/MCGuiness towards the end. I enjoyed Punk/Cena all the way through. So Punk/Cena it is.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Str8Shooter » Jun 12, '15, 5:19 pm

Yeah from someone that's seen a fair bit of ROH over the years without being a crazy ROH-bot, I think there's plenty of good stuff and I'm not sure I'd swear off RoH after this one match :P

That being said, having a pretty good grasp of what Steve likes in his wrestling now, there's probably a lot of ROH stuff he wouldn't like either :P
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Hanley! » Jun 12, '15, 5:31 pm

The camera work and the bad audio can be forgiven, I understand that it's a promotion with a much smaller budget to work with. Those things wouldn't have been a deal breaker at all if I had liked the rest of the match more. It was the needlessly dangerous and contrived spots that made me dislike this match. There was just a lack of psychology. Storytelling and psychology are the first things I look for in most matches.

I wouldn't be surprised if I did like the tag stuff more. And I'm sure there's a lot of ROH stuff that I'd enjoy. Hell, I've seen ROH matches in the past that I've enjoyed. But this match is an example of the kind of indy stuff that really bugs me.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Daz » Jun 12, '15, 10:56 pm

Whilst I absolutely agree on the headbutting the post spot, as it always has been and always will be, a dumb thing to do (especially given the concussion issues Nigel has later on in his career), I can't agree on the storytelling and psychology.

The whole match is a story in and off itself because of the Pure Rules in place. Dragon out wrestling McGuinness and playing him at his own game (Nigel's gimmick at this point was that he was the first Pure Champion to really master the rules and use them to his advantage, which is why he was the most successful Pure Champion in history) resulting in Nigel doing the same thing to Dragon, forcing him to utilize rope breaks with Danielson's own Cattle Mutilation. Danielson turning up the intensity once Nigel uses up his third rope break. The dive into the crowd and Nigel having to beat the count is a callback to the finish of their first match at Weekend of Champions, where Nigel blocked that dive with a chair and beat Danielson by count out, beginning the whole dispute and the reason why this was a title unification match in the first place.

To me, there's a lot more going on under the surface in McGuinness/Danielson, than there is in the Cena/Punk match.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby War Daddy » Jun 12, '15, 11:34 pm

I think @VaderBomb died after reading that :lol
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby VaderBomb » Jun 13, '15, 10:27 pm

Kirbi wrote:D/G was a wretched, crushing disappointment. Maybe my expectations were a little high, but if this is the very best that ROH has to offer - the only match to make it through - I won't be looking for any more. The storytelling here was utter rubbish, the production exacerbated every minor flaw in a match by two talented performers, and you can clearly see them 'helping' each other frequently i.e. McGuinness does not even slightly look like he's resisting being brained into a pole; he looks like he's remaining braced for it. Sheer stupidity.


First off, of the seven Danielson matches that I chose for this contest, Danielson/McGuiness is the furthest from a technical wrestling clinic. I chose this match for many reasons. It's very different from most of the matches that both of these guys worked and also very different from every other match that I chose.

It was the peak of a bitter rivalry which didn't end at Unified because of the controversial finish. Bryan and Nigel would fight again a few weeks later at Epic Encounter II, where they wrestled to a time limit draw. Bryan would retain his world championship. Almost two years later, Nigel tapped out Bryan to retain his World Championship and went on to pin him to a three count in two more subsequent defenses, the latter being one of the last times that Danielson got a shot at the ROH World Championship.

The reason why this Danielson match made it to this tournament and the others (which are much more technical and much less brutal) didn't is purely because it got multiple votes. I'm pretty sure that Daz voted for it and perhaps one or two others.

The storytelling isn't rubbish at all, there's a lot going on here! These two guys had been in wars together and this was the rubber match as far as their championship bouts were concerned. At this point they wanted to not only beat their opponent, but fuck them up beyond repair and both wrestlers did a damn good fucking job at making that unbridled passion and anger look convincing.

As far as them "helping" each other, it's a wrestling match and it takes more than one performer to make the match compelling.

How could McGuiness resist hitting the pole if Bryan was holding onto both of his arms and pulling him forward? Bryan uses his boot for leverage and disrupts Nigel's only chance of escaping.

You ask why Nigel looks as if he's bracing for it? He's about to get his head smashed multiple times into a solid steal pole. You wouldn't brace for that? Like I said, Nigel had no way of escaping seeing as Bryan was holding onto both of his arms and using his entire body and legs as leverage.

Hanley! wrote:Okay, so I watched Danielson vs McGuinness. And then I voted for Punk vs Cena.

I kinda hated Danielson/McGuinness. Actually, I was getting downright pissed off by the end of the match. This was some spectacular indyrific bullshit.

The audio was awful, to the point where it was difficult to make out the rules at the beginning of the match. And the camera was pretty bad too. It was zoomed in at the wrong times and zoomed out at the wrong times. Often the guys were either being exposed, or you couldn't see what was happening properly. There were submissions where we couldn't see exactly where the pressure was being applied and there were punches that we could see weren't landing.

Though while that stuff detracted from the match it wasn't what really pissed me off.


I usually try reserve the tiny amount of hatred that I'm capable of projecting for something that actually matters. Hating a wrestling match is pretty silly, especially one that isn't offensive and is as entertaining and important as the main event of ROH Unified. Lot's of people love this match and to tear it apart as if it's some hardcore shit-show is smug as all shit. Unless your agenda from the get go was to tear this match apart, then I really don't see how you can be so passionately against this match as if it's on the level of Nazi propaganda. I find it to be one of the more entertaining matches of the 00s and I don't really understand the hostility, especially considering that I disagree with almost all of your points.

If you're going into a smaller promotion expecting audio and video as slick and highly produced as WWE, you've got some bad expectations. The camerawork is totally tolerable and no where near as shoddy as you make it seem to be. All of the shots are clear and there's no examples of "submissions where you couldn't see exactly where the pressure was being applied". What the fuck does that even mean? There are also no examples of "punches that we could see weren't landing". Were you watching a Hogan match? All of the strikes within this match were tight, stiff and full of energy.

Hanley! wrote:It started out pretty decent. I was honestly more impressed by McGuinness than Danielson. His "pure wrestling" looked a lot more polished than Brian's. They had nice chemistry together in the early going and some of the transitions looked pretty damn cool. Danielson played up the heel role nicely too. I'm not sure if he was actually heel at this point, or if he was just playing heel due to the biased British crowd, but either way he did a good job.

A lot of the spots looked super contrived though. Like one of them would just stand there waiting to take a move from the other. Brian dashed into the corner simply to take a move from McGuinness. They stopped for a cup of tea and a chat when they were both standing on the top freaking rope. Also, some of Danielson's moves lacked the proper intensity. He gave some of the worst stomps I've seen and at one point barely rested his foot on Nigel's face, without pretending to exert any pressure.


You should be impressed with Nigel. He's a hell of a worker and one of the toughest mothers to ever lace up a pair of boots. The reason why his "pure" wrestling looked slightly more polished was because despite his confident promos, Bryan knew that Nigel was the biggest threat to his championship so far within his reign. Bryan tried to act cocky but he became unfocused in parts which led to Nigel coming back and beating the shit out of him. I agree that Bryan did a great job playing heel to the UK crowd, but that's about all that I agree with.

There just aren't any truly contrived spots. There's some impressive chain wrestling near the beginning of this match and every big move afterwards is confident and impactful. You state that one of them stands waiting to take a move. That happens in 98% of wrestling matches. These guys are humans, not perfect specimens. How can you expect them to be 100% in the right place at the right time at all times? With that question out of the way, this claim is just not apparent within this particular match. These two really have their shit together and neither man makes any big, prevalent mistakes that could potentially detract from the match.

You mention how they stop for awhile on the top rope, but fail to mention how Bryan had Nigel locked into a chicken-wing submission hold which disallowed him from easily escaping the grasp of Dragon. Bad stomps are also just not there. Bryan does some killer stomps on Nigel, including one where he bends Nigel's forearm backwards and vertical and stomps on his hand, driving the radius of his arm into the mat. It looked beyond excellent.

You say he lacks intensity and I call "bullshit". That 10/10 perfect dropkick to Nigel's face while on the top rope has something to say about that, as does his spectacular leap into the audience onto Nigel where they crashed into chairs (not the fold-up variation, mind you) with the intensity of a fucking house collapsing.

Hanley! wrote:What really pissed me off though was the ring post spot and what came after it. It looked absolutely terrible, and yet it was really dangerous. McGuinness cut himself hard way by basically headbutting the post himself. He leaned into each shot making it look stupid and phony. Why? This is wrestling at its ugliest. Absolutely stupid shit that's not worth it in the long run. Then they made it worse by getting into a phony, ugly looking headbutt battle that probably hurt like hell too. And just to further kill the psychology of the match, the bloody McGuinness is the one who started it. Towards the end of the match Brian seemed to really be stiffing McGuinness too (which led to an underwhelming KO finish out of nowhere).


The ring post spot didn't look terrible at all. It was absolutely barbarous but it looks legit because it was. Nigel cut himself the hard way? Big fucking deal. I've seen guys get busted open with more ferocity than that spot, and I probably like Nigel's more. You claim that he leans into each shot, but I already tore that false claim apart while quoting Kirbi. Bryan was holding onto both of Nigel's arms and using leverage to drive him forward. There's no way he'd realistically be able to get out of that predicament. This is not wrestling at it's ugliest. Try watching some stupid backyard shit or some Japanese exploding death-matches. Even ECW had stuff that was far more tasteless and brutal.

You chose Mankind vs Undertaker from KOTR 1998 for this tournament as one of your top 20 matches of all time. Isn't that like, really, really hypocritical?

It includes some super-famous, classic spots off of the Cell and onto the tacks but in the end it's hardly a wrestling match. It's more unnecessarily brutal than this match ever even comes close to being. Yet I don't go around acting as if I'm better than Taker and Mankind for pushing the limits of what a pro-wrestling match is, which is what you've been doing in this post a lot.

The psychology was not killed, but heightened by their headbutt battle. These guys were going to stop at nothing to win and with the awesome, unpredictable KO finish: Bryan retained the world championship, unified the pure title with it and Nigel never actually gave up which was used to fuel their more technically based battles in the future. The match at Unified was carnage unleashed, and we never saw that type of athletic callousness again. That carnage was reserved for two tough motherfuckers. Nigel McGuiness and the American Dragon. Two champions for one night only and I love every second of it.

Hanley! wrote:It's absolutely no mystery why both of their careers are probably over now. This was really stupid, pointless stuff. Dutch Mantel once famously said that there was a time in wrestling when people pretended to hurt each other and everyone thought it was real, and now people really hurt each other and everyone knows it's fake. This match is the epitome of that, if you ask me.

If this is the best of Bryan's ROH stuff, then I'll be happy not to go looking for any more of it.


Hah. Dutch Mantel's quote is a straw man argument if I've ever seen one and a misrepresentation of the current state of pro-wrestling.

You claim that Bryan/Nigel is the epitome of that, and I throw Undertaker/Makind right back at you. Again, a match that you personally chose for this tournament and a match that I'm certain will go further towards the finals than many other matches which are better on all accounts except for "in your face" violence.

While Nigel/Bryan at Unified is one of Bryan's most famous and important matches from ROH, PWG, Japan etc. He's had much more technical clinics that you should check out and would likely prefer.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Circled Square » Jun 13, '15, 10:33 pm

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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby SlightlyJames » Jun 13, '15, 11:31 pm

I disagree with the defense of the ring post spot. It looked pretty bad, Nigel had clearly tensed his arms to be more easily pulled onto the post and in no way looked like he was trying to avoid getting walloped on the dome. It felt far too gratuitous to me and I don't think it added much at all to the match.

The comparison to Mankind going off the cell falls way flat. It was also a moronic thing to do but the payoff was infinitely greater. That is a legendary, iconic moment in wrestling history. The only reason I haven't forgotten the ring post spot after seeing it less than a week ago is because it's still being discussed here.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby VaderBomb » Jun 13, '15, 11:37 pm

SlightlyJames wrote:I disagree with the defense of the ring post spot. It looked pretty bad, Nigel had clearly tensed his arms to be more easily pulled onto the post and in no way looked like he was trying to avoid getting walloped on the dome. It felt far too gratuitous to me and I don't think it added much at all to the match.

The comparison to Mankind going off the cell falls way flat. It was also a moronic thing to do but the payoff was infinitely greater. That is a legendary, iconic moment in wrestling history. The only reason I haven't forgotten the ring post spot after seeing it less than a week ago is because it's still being discussed here.



I disagree. That sequence absolutely added to the match and the only reason that Mankind's payoff was greater because his payoff was literally greater. It was on a bigger stage and more people saw it but that's irrelevant to my initial argument.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Daz » Jun 14, '15, 12:05 am

SlightlyJames wrote:I disagree with the defense of the ring post spot. It looked pretty bad, Nigel had clearly tensed his arms to be more easily pulled onto the post and in no way looked like he was trying to avoid getting walloped on the dome. It felt far too gratuitous to me and I don't think it added much at all to the match.

The comparison to Mankind going off the cell falls way flat. It was also a moronic thing to do but the payoff was infinitely greater. That is a legendary, iconic moment in wrestling history. The only reason I haven't forgotten the ring post spot after seeing it less than a week ago is because it's still being discussed here.


I remembered it 9 years later so I'd argue that it's memorable. I still think it was stupid but it's probably the only thing I disagree with Vaderbomb on when it comes to this match.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby VaderBomb » Jun 14, '15, 12:22 am

Daz wrote:
SlightlyJames wrote:I disagree with the defense of the ring post spot. It looked pretty bad, Nigel had clearly tensed his arms to be more easily pulled onto the post and in no way looked like he was trying to avoid getting walloped on the dome. It felt far too gratuitous to me and I don't think it added much at all to the match.

The comparison to Mankind going off the cell falls way flat. It was also a moronic thing to do but the payoff was infinitely greater. That is a legendary, iconic moment in wrestling history. The only reason I haven't forgotten the ring post spot after seeing it less than a week ago is because it's still being discussed here.


I remembered it 9 years later so I'd argue that it's memorable. I still think it was stupid but it's probably the only thing I disagree with Vaderbomb on when it comes to this match.


I'd never disagree that it was stupid for Nigel to take those hits considering his own personal health but he's his own person, makes his own decisions and he wanted to immortalize himself a bit and create a classic moment within a huge match. He delivered.
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Re: Greatest Match Round 1: Cena/Punk MITB vs. Danielson/McGuinness Unified

Postby Locke » Jun 14, '15, 1:19 am

I think we're forgetting something about these matches when it comes to voting.

It has to -matter- to us. The ROH match just didn't fuckin' matter to me. No matter how big of a wrestling fan you are, whether you dig story or technicality, it all comes down to relevance. This ROH match had no relevance for me. I'll preach until my dying day that DB/BD mattered more to WWE than any other wrestler ever, I'll argue it until I'm blue in the face, but in this case, it just didn't fuckin' matter to me. It's why I probably won't vote on any other matches in this "tourney" unless it involves this match. I can watch 'em all, I -will- watch 'em all (even if I'd already seen them) if links are provided, and it still won't matter to me.

Beyond CM Punk VS Cena, the only other match that mattered so much to me was DB vs Cena when DB won clean. God damn that was amazing, too.. but these ROH matches don't do shit for me. Then again, I'm not the kind of guy that watches because "they put on a clinic." Even if I wanted to be, it's always got to be about the build up, the booking, and the result. As someone that doesn't watch ROH, I miss out on way more than these single displays deserve.
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