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ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

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Who was better?

Savage
24
63%
Cena
14
37%
 
Total votes : 38

Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Daz » Apr 03, '14, 2:13 pm

Here’s the thing, do I think Savage is better than Cena? Personally I am a bigger Savage fan. But it’s hard to gauge who is actually better, because as I’ve said previously, the landscape in which they competed is so vastly different it’s like comparing apples and oranges. Do I think Cena is better than Savage as a pure in ring wrestler? No. But I don’t think they’re more than a hair or two apart. Do I think he’s a better on the mic? Again, it’s hard to really judge. Savage had magnetic charisma, a lot of the time he talked absolute nonsense. Sometimes it was gold, other times it wasn’t, it was mostly always entertaining. Cena isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, and I’ve never been a great Cena fan, let’s get that straight right here and now, but I think it’s wrong to undercut him because of personal preference. I don’t think Savage is streaks ahead of Cena by any means. In terms of importance to the company they worked for and the era of wrestling in which they competed, I think it’s hard to argue Cena is ahead of Savage. If you tallied up the scorecards, does Cena come out ahead of Savage? I don’t know. It’s a close call, I pretty much voted Cena to try and balance the thing out a little and provide a different perspective … which is well within my right to do so.

I’ll try and respond to a few of your points. Frist being that Savage got as stale as Cena. I never said that. I said that it wasn’t fair to claim one never got stale because he changed his gimmick or act or whatever you want to call it, which simply wasn’t true. Savage stayed very much the same for the majority of his career, which as a fan, isn’t a knock against him. But to malign the one for not changing in nearly a decade when the other didn’t really change for nearly 2 and a half seems like an unreasonable way to discredit somebody’s body of work. Also, to you and me, Cena’s act may have gotten old, but there are a lot of young children who it’s very much over with still. So you argument of getting over and staying over, doesn’t hold as much water, when looked at in the broader scope of things. Also the “Let’s go Cena, Cena sucks!” chants are absolutely part of his shtick at this point, so much so, there are actually people in crowds who chant both parts … the fact Cena gets any kind of reaction at all goes to show he’s over. It’s not as if the guy gets X-Pac Heat or silence.

Again, never said Cena was better than Savage because he’s been the face of the company. It was simply a counterpoint to Messiah talking about Savage could have filled Hulk Hogan’s shoes had Hulk never existed and the potential Savage had to be the top guy in the company. I was offering a more balanced point of view.

Also, everyone automatically jumps to Savage/Steamboat in terms of talking about Savage’s in ring quality. Yeah, one of the all-time greatest matches, no doubt about it. But then Savage had some truly terrible matches as well, same as Cena has. To say Savage had greater matches than Cena on the whole, again is a hard thing to gauge and really judge. The differing styles, not just of Cena and Savage themselves, but the people they had to work with makes it near impossible. Cena to be fair to him, is a very good in worker and pretty much has consistently solid matches. Savage tended to be a little bit up and down depending on who he worked with. I’m not gonna go from PPV to PPV, Saturday Night’s Main Event to Saturday Night’s Main Event, individually grading each and every match and stacking them up against one another.

Also, your point about booking is just twisting shit to be honest. The fact he’s book booked on top doesn’t necessarily negate bad booking. Keeping the guy that sells the most merchandise, does the most charitable work and is your most marketable star outside of the in-ring portion of the product, who also happens to be your biggest draw is 100% a business decision, a smart business decision at that. What creative then chooses to do with him is another matter. I’m giving him leeway because he has been poorly booked as a creative character. The same way I'll give Randy Savage leeway for the creative abortion that was the year 1990 for him when calling him one of the greatest workers of all time. I’m giving Cena credit for being extremely hardworking and dedicated which is in large portion, why he has survived so long at the top of the card. If you think it’s just because WWE are lazy or creatively inept then quite frankly you’re kidding yourself.

Also to say WWE are relying on attitude era guys and movie stars over Cena is again just inaccurate. Who did Rock come back to face twice? It was Cena. Why? Because he is the biggest draw they could pair Rocky with.

If we’re gonna boil in down to your two main points.

1) No, you may be right. Alone, it doesn’t.

2) Is just impossible to say, based on speculation, personal preference and a myriad of other factors. Yeah, you could be absolutely right. Cena could have wound up being the equivalent of Hercules Hernandez. Or he could have been a bigger star than Savage and Hulk Hogan put together. I don’t think is an appropriate way to make this decision.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Westcoastvibes » Apr 06, '14, 11:59 am

Reading all this, and seeing that some people are still bias towards cena because he his cena, I think that the bracket should have been changed to have Jericho vs. Savage and Cena vs. Benoit.

At least that way people would be forced to decide based on the character and not on the person, I could be wrong, but it looks like savage and Jericho will be advancing simply because it was an easy way out and not because people were unable to put negative feelings aside.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Everlong » Apr 06, '14, 12:03 pm

Westcoastvibes wrote:Reading all this, and seeing that some people are still bias towards cena because he his cena, I think that the bracket should have been changed to have Jericho vs. Savage and Cena vs. Benoit.

At least that way people would be forced to decide based on the character and not on the person, I could be wrong, but it looks like savage and Jericho will be advancing simply because it was an easy way out and not because people were unable to put negative feelings aside.


It's not bias against Cena because he's Cena. Most of this entire thread has been people arguing based on the merits and skills of Savage and Cena. Not sure where you get that from.

Also, Benoit's past would have been an issue with no matter who he faced, but for the most part that thread has stayed pretty solidly focused on the actual wrestling aspect of the contest. Had Benoit never killed anyone, he still probably would have lost.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby prophet » Apr 06, '14, 12:04 pm

Westcoastvibes wrote:At least that way people would be forced to decide based on the character and not on the person, I could be wrong, but it looks like savage and Jericho will be advancing simply because it was an easy way out and not because people were unable to put negative feelings aside.

Savage and Jericho are advancing because more people think they're better than Cena and Benoit, respectively. I don't see how it's an easy way out at all. You say that people show Cena bias because he's Cena - if that's the case what stops them from doing the same thing if Cena was paired against Benoit? And vise-versa, are people expected not to think about Benoit's crimes because he's paired against Cena?
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Westcoastvibes » Apr 06, '14, 12:22 pm

Everlong wrote:
Westcoastvibes wrote:Reading all this, and seeing that some people are still bias towards cena because he his cena, I think that the bracket should have been changed to have Jericho vs. Savage and Cena vs. Benoit.

At least that way people would be forced to decide based on the character and not on the person, I could be wrong, but it looks like savage and Jericho will be advancing simply because it was an easy way out and not because people were unable to put negative feelings aside.


It's not bias against Cena because he's Cena. Most of this entire thread has been people arguing based on the merits and skills of Savage and Cena. Not sure where you get that from.

Also, Benoit's past would have been an issue with no matter who he faced, but for the most part that thread has stayed pretty solidly focused on the actual wrestling aspect of the contest. Had Benoit never killed anyone, he still probably would have lost.


I am not gonna single people out, but, some of these post defending decisions to pick savage just seem more like people are convincing themselves for not picking cena (if that makes sense), same goes for the Benoit/Jericho matchup.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Everlong » Apr 06, '14, 12:25 pm

Well I'm not sure what you're talking about but the vast majority of this thread seems to be pretty good arguments in favor of both guys.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Westcoastvibes » Apr 06, '14, 12:29 pm

prophet wrote:
Westcoastvibes wrote:At least that way people would be forced to decide based on the character and not on the person, I could be wrong, but it looks like savage and Jericho will be advancing simply because it was an easy way out and not because people were unable to put negative feelings aside.

Savage and Jericho are advancing because more people think they're better than Cena and Benoit, respectively. I don't see how it's an easy way out at all. You say that people show Cena bias because he's Cena - if that's the case what stops them from doing the same thing if Cena was paired against Benoit? And vise-versa, are people expected not to think about Benoit's crimes because he's paired against Cena?

No, although it would be nice if it was not an issue at all since this is supposed to be a challenge of the characters and not the person.
The only reason I said cena/Benoit is because those two have the highest number or disbelievers that will overlook the accomplishments because they just don't like the guy on a personal level.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Messiah » Apr 06, '14, 12:31 pm

Just because people, like myself, pick Savage doesn't mean we are overlooking Cena's accomplishments. We are picking Savage because we think Savage is better in just about every way.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Str8Shooter » Apr 06, '14, 1:33 pm

Westcoastvibes wrote:Reading all this, and seeing that some people are still bias towards cena because he his cena, I think that the bracket should have been changed to have Jericho vs. Savage and Cena vs. Benoit.

At least that way people would be forced to decide based on the character and not on the person, I could be wrong, but it looks like savage and Jericho will be advancing simply because it was an easy way out and not because people were unable to put negative feelings aside.


This whole process is about as democratic as you get, people may have their biases based on people they like more than others, but it would be that way no matter what the matchups ended up being. I think for the most part people have tried to look at it as objectively as possible. People aren't going to agree with all the winners because wrestling can be very subjective based on personal tastes.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Chewy » Apr 06, '14, 2:14 pm

Cena because he isn't dead.
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Re: ROUND ONE: "Macho Man" Randy Savage (2) vs. John Cena (7)

Postby Kirbi » Apr 06, '14, 2:42 pm

Chewy wrote:Cena because he isn't dead.


You'll never convince me of that.
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