How good is Gail Kim?

[SlightlyJames]

that in turn put me off* posting in the TNA section.

Wow, that's it? I seriously cause you to post only in the TNA section? Sheesh, I'm not here all the time you know.

Staying the hell out of this argument but once you fix the typo it would appear you made him want to stay out of the TNA section.

[PorkChop]

Could this be any more terrible of a welcome wagon?

If my memory serves me, I'm actually talking about the topic at hand and you people are bawling and complaining just because I am here. Complaining. On the internet. Am I not allowed to be here? In case you didn't know, you are on a website. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. You have the choice to reply or not. Nobody is making you. Can I not take a marketable approach on the wrestling business if I feel it's right? Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It sounds more like you got some issues to work out, mates.

You expected a welcome wagon?

The only reason I'm not thrilled your here is because of how biased and negative you are, and that in turn put me of posting in the TNA section. You seemed unable to keep your bile in when it came to certain things, and that in turn took away any enjoyment in discussing things, this specific title being the perfect example.

I have no problem you being here, if your able to not to hate on everything someone has to say about what they think. Like you said, we have the choice to reply, so maybe don't reply if all your going to do is hate on something over and over.

Wow, that's it? I seriously cause you to post only in the TNA section? Sheesh, I'm not here all the time you know.

For one, I'm not "bias" or "hateful", the more understandable phrase is that I just don't agree with you. But that's how the wrestling industry normal has been as well as almost every company, a business powered by the consumer's expense.

So in this case, Petey, no, Gail Kim was never even a solid money-maker for WWE despite her athleticism and passion for wrestling. And no, it's not "bias" or "hate", it's simply what people are able to observe.

Ok, this is the way it is.

You are quite a negative poster. I know you disagree with people, but it's your patronising and condescending tone which rubs people up the wrong way. Calling him 'Petey' makes it sound like you're talking down to a child. You sound like an asshole. If you look at this thread, every one of your posts besides 'Why?' has a bitchy and mocking tone to it. This was often the case on the old forum, and it would suck the life out of threads. This forum was made to preserve and enhance a great community of people, and we won't tolerate anyone continually upsetting others, driving them away from sections, or causing them not to post at all. You can disagree with people all you want, hell, I encourage it, it makes for interesting debate. But if you continue to be patronising and look down on everyone as if you know better, which you used to do on the old forum and so far seem to be doing now, you won't last long here.

[joegvo]

Could this be any more terrible of a welcome wagon?

If my memory serves me, I'm actually talking about the topic at hand and you people are bawling and complaining just because I am here. Complaining. On the internet. Am I not allowed to be here? In case you didn't know, you are on a website. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. You have the choice to reply or not. Nobody is making you. Can I not take a marketable approach on the wrestling business if I feel it's right? Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It sounds more like you got some issues to work out, mates.

You expected a welcome wagon?

The only reason I'm not thrilled your here is because of how biased and negative you are, and that in turn put me of posting in the TNA section. You seemed unable to keep your bile in when it came to certain things, and that in turn took away any enjoyment in discussing things, this specific title being the perfect example.

I have no problem you being here, if your able to not to hate on everything someone has to say about what they think. Like you said, we have the choice to reply, so maybe don't reply if all your going to do is hate on something over and over.

Wow, that's it? I seriously cause you to post only in the TNA section? Sheesh, I'm not here all the time you know.

For one, I'm not "bias" or "hateful", the more understandable phrase is that I just don't agree with you. But that's how the wrestling industry normal has been as well as almost every company, a business powered by the consumer's expense.

So in this case, Petey, no, Gail Kim was never even a solid money-maker for WWE despite her athleticism and passion for wrestling. And no, it's not "bias" or "hate", it's simply what people are able to observe.

Ok, this is the way it is.

You are quite a negative poster. I know you disagree with people, but it's your patronising and condescending tone which rubs people up the wrong way. Calling him 'Petey' makes it sound like you're talking down to a child. You sound like an asshole. If you look at this thread, every one of your posts besides 'Why?' has a bitchy and mocking tone to it. This was often the case on the old forum, and it would suck the life out of threads. This forum was made to preserve and enhance a great community of people, and we won't tolerate anyone continually upsetting others, driving them away from sections, or causing them not to post at all. You can disagree with people all you want, hell, I encourage it, it makes for interesting debate. But if you continue to be patronising and look down on everyone as if you know better, which you used to do on the old forum and so far seem to be doing now, you won't last long here.

No, I'm not. I've been on the site for 8 years and this is all of a sudden an issue now? This is the first I am hearing of this in any light and you seem to have just made that up because you favor certain users over others. You're talking as if you all have a problem just because I'm here and I'm been trying to mind my own business until "Petey" had to mention me in a negative light. You all call me "Joey", like I'm a "child". All your friends in your "group" so to speak always have something rotten to say to me in every board, yet somehow you believe that it's my fault. So there's certainly a great deal of hypocrisy going on, oh, but since you are a mod now, you can just sweep that all under the rug because they say what you want to hear, right? Not only are you being hypocritical, but you're being a bully as well. "Asshole", huh? That adds so much credibility to your statements...

Ban me then. You'll just prove my point, for I have done nothing that would get me banned. It's a message board afterall. I couldn't care less, especially since you guys are making it difficult for people to enjoy it here. I have been to websites such as WZ, WInc, 411 Mania, etc. more frequently and I really like the versatility of the Disqus commenting system, they have high activity, mods that ban users for actually GOOD reasons, and I don't get 7 different people who I don't even know in a shouting contest with me all because they don't like what they read from other people.

I remember there were other new users who later quit, such as Kenan (the Miley Cyrus fan) & Handy Randy, because they were bullied by other users to the point they left (and I kinda can't blame them either). I hardly have credit for that, because I didn't reply to them just to make fun of them. I'm not even here all the time, so I find it really hard to believe that I could just single-handedly reduce the site's inactivity. That's a rather sad excuse to try to get me to leave, huh? It really means so much to you guys that I'm not on here? It's a website. Nobody has to be here.

[GNR]

Joey

I too am going to stay the hell out of this argument, but the reason people call you Joey is not because they're trying to talk you like a child, but because it was your username.

[PorkChop]

Joey

I too am going to stay the hell out of this argument, but the reason people call you Joey is not because they're trying to talk you like a child, but because it was your username.

Yep. If your username is Joey, I'll call you Joey. The only person here who isn't really known by their username is Tim, and that's only because it's quicker to type than reyflinfury619.

I'll address each of your points individually.

- It's not just an issue now. You didn't endear yourself to people on the old board due to constant negativity and thread disruption, but no one could take it up with you as 1) it would end up going round in circles, or 2) Bryan would chime in and lock/delete/ban/whatever.

- Already addressed the 'Joey' thing.

- People 'have rotten things to say about you' as they don't like your posts. As I said, this is because they are negative, patronising and tiresome. No one has any undeserved reputations here. It's not like high school where you can be a nice guy, but unpopular because of the way you dress. As someone who boasts visiting several other forums over the span of many years, you should know more than anyone that people's opinions of you are based on your posts. If you post good things, people will like you. If you patronise others and ruin the forum experience for them, they won't. The only person who has caused people to have a negative perception of you is yourself.

- I won't ban you. Like you said, you've done nothing to get you banned. Sure, you came across very patronising, but whatever. I'm not as uptight as Crissay or Bryan and don't have an itchy trigger finger, but that doesn't mean I won't call you out on your shit. I'd do the same if I was a regular user. I did on the old forum, and will do now. The only difference is the colour of my username.

- Yeah, some users may have quit. I don't know who Kenan was but I remember HandyRandy, and I also remember that while he was a nice guy 20% of the time, the other 80% he was a miserable and bitter poster who always saw the negative side of everything. He'd disrupt good threads, and people began to dislike him. Inevitably, this will lead to a few people mocking him (i.e, Cena54) although I don't condone that. I'll call anyone out on their shit, but I won't mock or belittle them in an argument or debate.

- I don't recall anyone claiming you single-handedly reduced the site's activity. I think you're exaggerating things to make yourself look like a victim, now. Pete said he didn't post in the TNA section as your posts drove him away, which I can understand. Tim and Hanley did the same when metalmessiah was rampant in the WWE Discussion. I almost did the same. One person said they stopped posting because of you. One person. Not the entire site.

I won't reply to you anymore after this, as I know from personal experience and from watching many others do the same, arguing with you goes round in endless circles. All I ask is don't be a dick - don't burst in here putting other users down by patronising them. It sucks the atmosphere out of threads, and makes you look like an ass. It's a great community here, so don't be a dick and spoil it for everyone else.

[Everlong]

As I recall, Keenan and HandyRandy were frequently aggressive toward other users themselves, especially keenan. I don't know anything about their departures, but if it's true that they left because they felt bullied,it would appear it was a "can dish it out but can't take it" situation.

joegvo, you are welcome here as long as you abide by the rules, just like everybody else. As for everybody else, give the guy some breathing space and let him contribute. This thread has gone completely off topic into a personal battle, and while I'm totally ok with letting it play out among you guys, I think we should remember that it's a new forum, which means it's a new start. Let's try to leave things that happened at WWE-Club behind us and focus on making this place great.

If you don't like the guy that's cool, but he's right in saying that he hadn't done anything wrong yet.

[Hanley!]

So in this case, Petey, no, Gail Kim was never even a solid money-maker for WWE despite her athleticism and passion for wrestling. And no, it's not "bias" or "hate", it's simply what people are able to observe.

I don't know why we're specifically talking about WWE now, when Kim has done the majority of her work AND her best work in TNA. And this is also the TNA forum. It seems like you're using old data to make your argument.

Gail is an athletic veteran, but the last time I checked wrestling was a business & not always does skill draw money. If you want athletes go watch a sports game. Is Gail entertaining? From what I've seen from her in WWE, not really. She had plenty of tag team matches with Kelly Kelly & Gail couldn't hold a candle to Kelly in drawing power.

Comparing the drawing power of WWE Divas is a little pointless, because none of them draw. I can sincerely say that I don't think any WWE female has had any drawing power since Mickie James - and that's early on in her run. Maybe AJ has been a draw as a personality, but in terms of the regular female wrestlers, I don't think any of them have brought fans to the show. Or if they have it's been so minuscule that it's not worth mentioning.

But in TNA, Gail has been a big draw. She was drawing some of the highest ratings for the company consistently at one point when she was feuding with Kong. She was really over - all of her stuff was over and the crowds were actually into her matches and storylines. Now TNA might be a smaller market than WWE, but the Knockouts were actually making a difference to the company which has not been the case in WWE in some time.

Based on that logic, Kim is one of the biggest female wrestling draws of the last decade if not THE biggest. The only real competition she has would be Awesome Kong, the Beautiful People (only as a double act), Mickie James and Trish Stratus. And Stratus hasn't been around much over the last decade.

[joegvo]

So in this case, Petey, no, Gail Kim was never even a solid money-maker for WWE despite her athleticism and passion for wrestling. And no, it's not "bias" or "hate", it's simply what people are able to observe.

I don't know why we're specifically talking about WWE now, when Kim has done the majority of her work AND her best work in TNA. And this is also the TNA forum. It seems like you're using old data to make your argument.

Gail is an athletic veteran, but the last time I checked wrestling was a business & not always does skill draw money. If you want athletes go watch a sports game. Is Gail entertaining? From what I've seen from her in WWE, not really. She had plenty of tag team matches with Kelly Kelly & Gail couldn't hold a candle to Kelly in drawing power.

Comparing the drawing power of WWE Divas is a little pointless, because none of them draw. I can sincerely say that I don't think any WWE female has had any drawing power since Mickie James - and that's early on in her run. Maybe AJ has been a draw as a personality, but in terms of the regular female wrestlers, I don't think any of them have brought fans to the show. Or if they have it's been so minuscule that it's not worth mentioning.

But in TNA, Gail has been a big draw. She was drawing some of the highest ratings for the company consistently at one point when she was feuding with Kong. She was really over - all of her stuff was over and the crowds were actually into her matches and storylines. Now TNA might be a smaller market than WWE, but the Knockouts were actually making a difference to the company which has not been the case in WWE in some time.

Based on that logic, Kim is one of the biggest female wrestling draws of the last decade if not THE biggest. The only real competition she has would be Awesome Kong, the Beautiful People (only as a double act), Mickie James and Trish Stratus. And Stratus hasn't been around much over the last decade.

Finally, some discussion.

Okay, the reason why I bring up her progress from WWE is that TNA, I don't think, shares the same business model as WWE. When it comes to WWE, they stick with the people that draw the most fans, ratings, sales, etc. because that's how they make more money. Gail was obviously never any good being a marketable talent.

TNA nearly prints merchandise for nearly everybody on their roster and they seem to waste money on it since not many people may want a shirt of Gunner. And Gail of course hasn't been pushed all this time because she's a good draw, but because WWE wouldn't "use her right" & pushing people that WWE didn't is apparently one of TNA's hooks to fans.

I have said before that the markets between TNA & WWE are very different but I don't think that TNA's fanbase had a knack for Gail specifically, but any woman that's looking "hot", a la The Beautiful People, in which WWE's fans don't care about as much outside Kelly Kelly. So conclusively she's getting pushed because of her fallout with WWE & fans cheer for her in TNA because she looks and dresses in a way that they prefer.

[HardcoreLegend]

I've been on the site for 8 years

Hold up... How many days have we been online?!

As for Gail Kim, it's a tough one because she's spent time in both TNA and WWE playing completely different characters.

In WWE there was no investment in her character during both runs, so its hard to really base an opinion on that. She always had good outings in the ring there, but there were times she didn't really shine, but can she be blamed when she was wrestling against inexperienced Divas who had a mould to stick to?

In TNA she has definitely shone during her second run, but still, her character hasn't been amazing. It has been good in the way that it was different for the KO division, but could anyone have played it as well as her... No doubt! In fact, when she returned, I'm sure Madison Rayne was doing the similar gimmick of "top bitch" but the fact that TNA could have the name of their original KO running the similar gimmick completely trumped that.

In terms of in ring ability, she definitely ranks up there, if not in the top spot... But in terms of all round-ness she falls behind the likes of Lita, Trish, Victoria, Awesome Kong, Beth Phoenix, McCool, AJ...

[Hanley!]

^^ That list is far too long. Lita is not a great all rounder, she was neither great on the microphone or particularly good in the ring. She just stood out because of her look and her occasional moonsaults, etc. Beth Phoenix is one of the most overrated female wrestlers ever. People assumed she was good in the ring based on her appearance but apparently never paid attention to her entirely mediocre matches. And McCool was okay on the microphone (albeit irritating) but not impressive in ring at all.

The others you mentioned, there's an argument for them being better all rounders, for sure. But in the ring, I don't think any of them are better than Kim. She's right up at the top.

And Joey, I'd just repeat the same argument I mentioned before. I don't think any female wrestlers in WWE are draws or particularly over with the fans. When Gail was around a few years ago, she wasn't particularly over but neither was anyone else. Whereas in TNA she has scored high ratings for the company and the audience clearly connects with her. She is undeniably over - she gets louder reactions than most others and her feuds always perform better than those of her contemporaries.

I don't think they only push her because she's former WWE talent either - Victoria and Mickie James were both far more recognisable as former WWE stars and Kim was often booked more favourably than them in TNA, and often seemed more over than either of them either. The looks argument doesn't win me over either, because while I do think Kim is hot, she is in a much less typical way than some of the other girls on the roster such as Velvet or Tessmacher. I think they push her because she's over, because she's good, and to a certain extent because she was their first Knockout champion and is very tied in with the division's identity now.

[Headlesspete]

^^ That list is far too long. Lita is not a great all rounder, she was neither great on the microphone or particularly good in the ring. She just stood out because of her look and her occasional moonsaults, etc. Beth Phoenix is one of the most overrated female wrestlers ever. People assumed she was good in the ring based on her appearance but apparently never paid attention to her entirely mediocre matches. And McCool was okay on the microphone (albeit irritating) but not impressive in ring at all.

Sorry Steve, but your completely wrong on the Phoenix and McCool front. Beth was one of the best woman wrestlers WWE had for years! She had numerous matches that stood out with Micki James, Melina and Victoria, and she took awful divas like Maria and Kelly Kelly to matches that were far better than ever should have been allowed. Not to mention her last match with Natalya was pretty good, and her matches with McCool was also up there in terms of diva matches.

Bring me onto McCool, someone who seemed to get a lot of negativity based on her relationship rather than her ring work. She too had some great matches with the likes of the woman mentioned above, and had a personality to top it all off!

If Beth and McCool were to return to the WWE today, they would outshine all of the other divas bar AJ! The day each lady left, left a gaping hole in the division that they are only now getting over.

[Hanley!]

Phoenix was pretty dull, barely had any memorable matches and botched a lot. I'm sure several others would agree with me that she was the most overrated female wrestler WWE has had in years. On the old club, the members seemed to be split 50/50 with 50% thinking that she was mediocre and 50% fooling themselves into thinking she wasn't.

McCool isn't someone I bash because of her relationship, but because she was pushed above her talents (probably because of her relationship). She also did a version of the Styles Clash that looked horrible and always made me fear for the other person's life.